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Air Show crashes - Dallas, Texas

Talyn

Ronin
Founding Member

HayesGreener

Professional
This is the fighter and pilot. The kid up front is a cadet
 

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Talyn

Ronin
Founding Member
Based on the wreckage colors it looks like B-17 "Texas Raiders" was the one of the two B-17's that the Commemorative Airforce has/had.



The CAF visited my area this summer with B-17 "Sentimental Journey".
 
Another video
There is simply not information to figure out what was going on here....
This video shows more aircraft, and it seems to show they were all flying parallel courses and with altitude separation, which is what you'd want to do to avoid a mid-air collision....

Then the fighter (someone early claimed it was a kingcobra) comes into view in a crossing course and descending....
Which makes no sense, that is asking for a collision and would not be how they would plan that for a fly over, maybe there was something more complex they were trying to perform?

The first video it is not as evident as the 2nd, him being in the descent...
Low wing, long nosed fighter it is possible he didn't see the bomber since he was above him descending till it was too late, still doesn't explain how would be off course and descending?

either way, wild guesses, there has to be more to the story or someone just really screwed it up...
 
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Another video
There is simply not information to figure out what was going on here....
This video shows more aircraft, and it seems to show they were all flying parallel courses and with altitude separation, which is what you'd want to do to avoid a mid-air collision....

Then the fighter (someone early claimed it was a kingcobra) comes into view in a crossing course and descending....
Which makes no sense, that is asking for a collision and would not be how they would plan that for a fly over, maybe there was something more complex they were trying to perform?

The first video it is not as evident as the 2nd, him being in the descent...
Low wing, long nosed fighter it is possible he didn't see the bomber since he was above him descending till it was too late, still doesn't explain how would be off course and descending?

either way, wild guesses, there has to be more to the story or someone just really screwed it up...
And honestly playing Sunday morning backyard quarterback on who went up/down left or right is unnecessary.
This is tragic accident and it’s time to pray for those lost and their families.
🙏🙏🙏🙏
 

Old_Me

Hellcat
we haven't been to the local air show in a few years now.. it was once sponsored by several businesses, then they backed out long before covid lock downs.

when the new promoter was trying to get one up and running, he was going to charge an admission fee, per vehicle or per person, i cannot recall, and everyone said basically, "screw you"

the air show sponsorships of the past, they "asked" that you donate at least $20 per vehicle, and that money went to the children's hospital, so no one minded that.

the new promoter, someone who promotes these air shows, (might be the same promoter as this disaster) never made any mention of them donating to the hospital.

so no air show for us...which is ok with us, as it really is, "same ole, same ole"
 

Faulkner

Operator
we haven't been to the local air show in a few years now.. it was once sponsored by several businesses, then they backed out long before covid lock downs.

when the new promoter was trying to get one up and running, he was going to charge an admission fee, per vehicle or per person, i cannot recall, and everyone said basically, "screw you"

the air show sponsorships of the past, they "asked" that you donate at least $20 per vehicle, and that money went to the children's hospital, so no one minded that.

the new promoter, someone who promotes these air shows, (might be the same promoter as this disaster) never made any mention of them donating to the hospital.

so no air show for us...which is ok with us, as it really is, "same ole, same ole"

I don't have a problem with charging admission to an air show. No difference than charging for a gun show.
 

BobT

Elite
My heart goes out to the families of the fallen. This is a tragic loss on several levels. Obviously, the human tragedy is by far the worst. There is also the tragedy of losing 2 historical tributes to the Greatest Generation.
 
This explains a lot, the 2nd graphic, looks like they were doing a racetrack pattern or a final turn to overfly the runway. It looks like the Kingcobra went wide in his turn and crossed over the B-17's track. Because of the visibility of a fighter, and the fact he was probably looking at ground cues to get on track, he probably never even saw the B-17.
 

Talyn

Ronin
Founding Member
This explains a lot, the 2nd graphic, looks like they were doing a racetrack pattern or a final turn to overfly the runway. It looks like the Kingcobra went wide in his turn and crossed over the B-17's track. Because of the visibility of a fighter, and the fact he was probably looking at ground cues to get on track, he probably never even saw the B-17.
The ADS-B (transponder) tracks are flat earth perspectives (also in my post above). You also have to look at the vids for the real-world perspective.

The P-63 came in descending from 7-8-o'clock high and banking towards the B-17 so, I would think he was looking at the B-17 and hit the B-17 from slightly below and angling in. Risky maneuver at the low straight & level altitude that the B-17 was flying, which could be assumed to be the hard deck.

No one will know what was going on in the head of the P-63 pilot.
 
The ADS-B (transponder) tracks are flat earth perspectives (also in my post above). You also have to look at the vids for the real-world perspective.

The P-63 came in descending from 7-8-o'clock high and banking towards the B-17 so, I would think he was looking at the B-17 and hit the B-17 from slightly below and angling in. Risky maneuver at the low straight & level altitude that the B-17 was flying, which could be assumed to be the hard deck.

No one will know what was going on in the head of the P-63 pilot.
My point is, the tracks from ATC network provides more info to show what they were doing. They were all making a turn on to parallel tracks, but the kingcobra's path shows he turned later and that caused him to converge on the B-17 path.

The kingcobra pilot seeing the B-17 doesn't make sense to me, he would have avoided him. He was distracted and looking away from it, or, and this is very common in mid-air's, the view of the pilot blocked by the fuselage and wings of his airplane, blocked the view of the aircraft they were on a collision course with.

It is very easy to pick up a descent in a turn and not notice till you've descended a bit.

It looks like to me the kingcobra pilot got out of position. Either turned too late or was flying formation off the other fighters and went wide. Trying to correct he was looking at ground cues, or looking at the other fighters that he went wide on in the formation. So their relative positions and configuration of fighter aircraft, his view of the B-17 was blocked, so if the pilot looked back for other aircraft he never saw it. He also didn't catch he had started to descend in the turn. This makes sense to me.

It is "speculation" based of what little information we have. There will be more info and the final analysis could be very different.
 

KillerFord1977

Ronin
Founding Member
P-63 being a low wing aircraft, the pilot in a bank that he had would put the wing obstructing his view of the B-17 at his 1 to 2 o clock as he came in as seen in the videos.

Horrible regardless of how it happened.

Also, cannot rule out mechanical failure.
Possible issue with flight controls ??

Who knows.
NTSB will find out
 
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