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How to make the United States united again?

C. Sumpin

Custom
This thread has proven to me once again that (most) folks believe what they believe with little regard for the Holy Scriptures or the Constitution (or logic or common sense or history) and what those guides offer. And, that the majority in that group have left tilting tendencies that they love to cling to against all evidence.

I suppose a person does not have to be a "bad person" to be citizen that goes against what is traditionally American.
Some folks, good in many ways, are terrible for the preservation of the rights of others. To what degree that is may define good or bad. There are some good people in jail. There are rotten people to be found in every level/place in society.

And this right here: "In any case the rights of a female citizen outweigh those of a potential one"; if you are referring to an unborn child, goes against the Declaration which declares "all men (persons) are created equal".

Suffice to say that even in a group where 2A is common ground many divisions reside.
 

Bassbob

Ronin
This thread has proven to me once again that (most) folks believe what they believe with little regard for the Holy Scriptures or the Constitution (or logic or common sense or history) and what those guides offer. And, that the majority in that group have left tilting tendencies that they love to cling to against all evidence.

I suppose a person does not have to be a "bad person" to be citizen that goes against what is traditionally American.
Some folks, good in many ways, are terrible for the preservation of the rights of others. To what degree that is may define good or bad. There are some good people in jail. There are rotten people to be found in every level/place in society.

And this right here: "In any case the rights of a female citizen outweigh those of a potential one"; if you are referring to an unborn child, goes against the Declaration which declares "all men (persons) are created equal".

Suffice to say that even in a group where 2A is common ground many divisions reside.
If you're down with universal BGC and red flag laws you aren't pro 2A, period. In fact you completely fail to understand the 2A. Just sayin.
 

Talyn

Ronin
Founding Member
So 740,000 more don't matter?
Mearly stating the facts. The ~740,000 deaths (all questionably directly related to the Covid itself since the medical authorities say only ~5% of overall Covid deaths are directly due to the Covid itself, vs. the Covid exasperating pre-existing conditions) are part of the overall mortality numbers.

Considering the overall reluctance of the majority of the medical industrial complex to use existing & proven therapeutics to treat Covid positive people early on the overall ~740,000 count would be significantly lower.

So....
38970a9319da80f89f14444bcfdb09d4.jpg
 

Grifter

Custom
Founding Member
Mearly stating the facts. The ~740,000 deaths (all questionably directly related to the Covid itself since the medical authorities say only ~5% of overall Covid deaths are directly due to the Covid itself, vs. the Covid exasperating pre-existing conditions) are part of the overall mortality numbers.

Considering the overall reluctance of the majority of the medical industrial complex to use existing & proven therapeutics to treat Covid positive people early on the overall ~740,000 count would be significantly lower.

So....View attachment 21122
Wouldn’t it be wonderful to actually get to the truth about all the crap one day?
 

Rakiticus

Operator
I have said it before and will say it again . I think most of the trouble between the people of the two political parties is instigated by the media. They see something and then twist it . Example : The story about Border Guards on horse back whipping illegals which turned out to be false.
Then when the media is caught in a lie it takes them forever to retract the lie. This keeps people worked up , thinking the truth is in the first story

Even the weather channel shows fake stuff. Showing pictures of the news caster standing in a ditch to make flooding look much worse then it really is .

Also most politicians have forgotten that they are elected to serve us and not the other way around.

I don't know the answer for turning this around and I wish I did. I do know that I don't want to see one party over the other be in complete rule. Either party could become tyrants if they had full control of the country. We need both parties so each can keep the other in check.
Two great points, the media and politicians. I stopped watching news and started feeling happier almost immediately. The politicians, it is hard to find one that actually thinks, acts and behave like any of us. Aren’t they supposed to be representing us? Aren’t they supposed to be just like us?
R.
 

SubChaser

Operator
Mearly stating the facts. The ~740,000 deaths (all questionably directly related to the Covid itself since the medical authorities say only ~5% of overall Covid deaths are directly due to the Covid itself, vs. the Covid exasperating pre-existing conditions) are part of the overall mortality numbers.

Considering the overall reluctance of the majority of the medical industrial complex to use existing & proven therapeutics to treat Covid positive people early on the overall ~740,000 count would be significantly lower.

So....View attachment 21122
When a fact is troubling, marginalize it with confusion. True that many COVID deaths have co-morbidity factors, still those people would likely still be alive had they not contracted the disease.
 

SubChaser

Operator
This thread has proven to me once again that (most) folks believe what they believe with little regard for the Holy Scriptures or the Constitution (or logic or common sense or history) and what those guides offer. And, that the majority in that group have left tilting tendencies that they love to cling to against all evidence.

I suppose a person does not have to be a "bad person" to be citizen that goes against what is traditionally American.
Some folks, good in many ways, are terrible for the preservation of the rights of others. To what degree that is may define good or bad. There are some good people in jail. There are rotten people to be found in every level/place in society.

And this right here: "In any case the rights of a female citizen outweigh those of a potential one"; if you are referring to an unborn child, goes against the Declaration which declares "all men (persons) are created equal".

Suffice to say that even in a group where 2A is common ground many divisions reside.
The Scriptures and the Constitution are two distinct and separate works. The very first Amendment makes that perfectly clear. Many conservatives tend to combine and/or confuse patriotism and religious zeal, when in fact they are two different issues.
The Declaration post that you cite refers to living, breathing individual citizens.
 

SubChaser

Operator
If you're down with universal BGC and red flag laws you aren't pro 2A, period. In fact you completely fail to understand the 2A. Just sayin.
If you decry those measures, then you fail to understand the application of that over-two-centuries-old amendment to a completely different social context than what existed when it was written.
 

C. Sumpin

Custom
The Scriptures and the Constitution are two distinct and separate works. The very first Amendment makes that perfectly clear. Many conservatives tend to combine and/or confuse patriotism and religious zeal, when in fact they are two different issues.
The Declaration post that you cite refers to living, breathing individual citizens.
The Scriptures and the Constitution are two distinct works, with Christian/Biblical themes interwoven into the Constitution. You are not going to admit to it Sub but the Rights that our founding Fathers guaranteed to protect in those documents were given by God. The Constitution gave us nothing we did not already possess by the Grace of God, it only attempted to not have them taken away by Government. But, due to citizens that do not care, are not so bright, fail to understand, fail to discern the political process and in ignorance fight against it assist in Government taking away our God given rights that belong to us all.

Is that a good person or a bad person? Which ever; it is an ignorant person that comes up short on the definition of Patriot.
 

Jimbo

Elite
When a fact is troubling, marginalize it with confusion. True that many COVID deaths have co-morbidity factors, still those people would likely still be alive had they not contracted the disease.
Sincere question: how do you know that the 740,000 number is a fact? I've gotten to the point that I don't believe a word the government says about the whole COVID thing. I do my own research.
 

SubChaser

Operator
The Scriptures and the Constitution are two distinct works, with Christian/Biblical themes interwoven into the Constitution. You are not going to admit to it Sub but the Rights that our founding Fathers guaranteed to protect in those documents were given by God. The Constitution gave us nothing we did not already possess by the Grace of God, it only attempted to not have them taken away by Government. But, due to citizens that do not care, are not so bright, fail to understand, fail to discern the political process and in ignorance fight against it assist in Government taking away our God given rights that belong to us all.

Is that a good person or a bad person? Which ever; it is an ignorant person that comes up short on the definition of Patriot.
US law has it's basis in many sources, from British law, both codified and common and even the Iroquois Confederacy.
Your confusion about patriotism is belied by the many Jewish, Muslim, Hindi, Native American, agnostic, atheist, Buhddist, Taoist and other American patriots who have fought and sometimes died, spilling the same red blood, for our country.
It is an ignorant person who fails to recognize this.
 
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SubChaser

Operator
Sincere question: how do you know that the 740,000 number is a fact? I've gotten to the point that I don't believe a word the government says about the whole COVID thing. I do my own research.
Right, because you know far more about it than the professionals who have made it their life's work.
 

benstt

Professional
Founding Member
I think this conversation is a good example of how hard it is to get us pulling in the same direction. We disagree on what the facts are, dispute the qualifications of people who know more than we do, have different understandings of history, and apparently have different ideas about what it means to actually be a citizen of the United States. It's been educational for me.
 

Grifter

Custom
Founding Member
I think this conversation is a good example of how hard it is to get us pulling in the same direction. We disagree on what the facts are, dispute the qualifications of people who know more than we do, have different understandings of history, and apparently have different ideas about what it means to actually be a citizen of the United States. It's been educational for me.
I think the problem is that we see the experts and want to believe them initially, but then they do things that start the questions and before long say things that completely contradict themselves and other experts.

See Fauci.
 

benstt

Professional
Founding Member
I think the problem is that we see the experts and want to believe them initially, but then they do things that start the questions and before long say things that completely contradict themselves and other experts.

See Fauci.
One thing I will say about people like Fauci and every other medical doctor in this situation, the science changes over time as we learn more. They aren't so much contradicting themselves as they are updating their understanding of the subject matter. That's the nature of science and it would be a dangerous thing if they all just stuck to their guns even as new facts and information were discovered. People cite to the mask guidance as some kind of evidence the doctors don't know what they're talking about but the changes are exactly what should happen. We learned more about how COVID spreads through aerosols. We can have questions but we also need to know that we probably don't have the knowledge to even know what the right questions are. Dunning-Kruger and all that. People don't know what they don't know, so they assume they actually know something. Of course, there was also the issue of having a serious lack of PPE so they wanted it to go to hospitals, which only makes sense. The ones doing the work should get the tools.

I think there is a problem in the United States with we as lay people thinking we can render an opinion that carries the same weight as those from people who've spent decades on education and practical experience to become experts on a subject. It's just not true and I don't know how that became a thing. People 'doing their own research" on Facebook or whatever thinking they actually know something and the people who do it for a living do not. It's crazy and it's dangerous. Or taking the word of their uncle or a guy at work as more true than someone with a doctorate. It's like if you needed a transmission in a race car rebuilt: the high school kid at Napa can give you his opinion, but does it stack up to the guys who do it for real on a F1 team? Not a chance. But people in the U.S. take the word of the the high school kid over people who actually know something about complex subjects all the time. It's how we get people in the ICU telling a MD to give them veterinary medications because Joe Rogan says so. My own dad pulled that on me when my grandpa died. I'm a lawyer so he asked how to deal with my grandpa's will and I explained it to him. The day he went to the courthouse the guy watching the metal detectors at the front door because he wasn't qualified to be a jail guard told him something different. Guess who my dad went with? Hint: not the guy with a law degree and years of experience.
 

RFSOD48

Operator
I think this conversation is a good example of how hard it is to get us pulling in the same direction. We disagree on what the facts are, dispute the qualifications of people who know more than we do, have different understandings of history, and apparently have different ideas about what it means to actually be a citizen of the United States. It's been educational for me.
Unfortunately having knowledge doesn’t necessarily equate to telling the truth. There is always bias interference when dealing with politics.
 

benstt

Professional
Founding Member
Unfortunately having knowledge doesn’t necessarily equate to telling the truth. There is always bias interference when dealing with politics.
That's true, but not everyone with knowledge is political. Often times they are just highly trained and experienced professionals who are trying to do their job but are running up against people who think reading the headline on an article about a study that has been dumbed down for lay people and a few Facebook posts make them experts, too.
 

Recusant

Professional
To me this thread implies that one size doesn't fit all. Even though the medical community is updating their understanding of the Covid just about every week, compare that to the knowledge that people had to rely on during the Spanish Flu over a hundred years ago. Compared to today's medical technology the doctors of that time were still in the stone age. But even then I'm sure that there were discussions galore on possible cures, treatments, and what the gov't should do about it. We as a Republic believe in majority rule but not at the expense of the minority. I think of the treatment of Mary Mallon and Japanese Americans and ask what will we do with those that don't want for whatever reason to be vaccinated? Are we going to round them up and place them in interment camps or physically isolate them for the rest of their lives. I know it sounds extreme, but as history teaches us hysteria can drive society to do evil things. My final point here to keep this post gun related is if the gov't has the authority to force vaccinations for the "public good" it will only be a short amount of time before authorities use the same argument to take our firearms.
 

benstt

Professional
Founding Member
To me this thread implies that one size doesn't fit all. Even though the medical community is updating their understanding of the Covid just about every week, compare that to the knowledge that people had to rely on during the Spanish Flu over a hundred years ago. Compared to today's medical technology the doctors of that time were still in the stone age. But even then I'm sure that there were discussions galore on possible cures, treatments, and what the gov't should do about it. We as a Republic believe in majority rule but not at the expense of the minority. I think of the treatment of Mary Mallon and Japanese Americans and ask what will we do with those that don't want for whatever reason to be vaccinated? Are we going to round them up and place them in interment camps or physically isolate them for the rest of their lives. I know it sounds extreme, but as history teaches us hysteria can drive society to do evil things. My final point here to keep this post gun related is if the gov't has the authority to force vaccinations for the "public good" it will only be a short amount of time before authorities use the same argument to take our firearms.
I'm with you on that. There are no one-size-fits-all solutions. It's perfectly acceptable to debate solutions and such things but the people that don't know what they're talking about really need to acknowledge that. Either put in the effort to actually learn something or start giving some credit to the people that have. Then use that knowledge to find the best solution.

There is a difference between vaccine mandates and gun confiscation, that being 2A. We had a discussion about this on here before. There is persuasive precedent for vaccine mandates being constitutional. Yes, that precedent dealt with a LOCAL mandate, not a FEDERAL one, so I'm sure there would be some 10th Amendment argument made in any challenge, but the reasoning used by SCOTUS took heavily from federal programs like the draft so I'd say a federal mandate now is likely to be upheld as constitutional in the courts. Gun confiscation is plainly unconstitutional no matter the "public good" arguments anyone makes.
 
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