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Second Ruling Against California’s ‘Assault Weapon’ Ban Offers Supreme Court A Chance To Fix Heller

Talyn

Hellcat
Founding Member
This could give the Supreme Court the opportunity to correct its errors in District of Columbia v. Heller, which otherwise could be the basis for effectively nullifying the right to keep and bear arms.

Second Ruling Against California’s ‘Assault Weapon’ Ban Offers Supreme Court A Chance To Fix Heller

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benstt

Professional
Founding Member
Here's a rhetorical question. Since keeping a "well regulated militia" is the reason the right to keep and bear arms in 2A exists, what do members consider a "well regulated militia" to be? How do you define the "militia" and what do you think is meant by "well regulated"? Who regulates it? To what extent? For what purpose? Who is in charge of it?
 

JeffS

Operator
Founding Member
I have to think the militia would be the lawful gun owners of America. As for well regulated, the powers that be have laws on the books toward that end.
Honestly, I never thought of the terms individually and in such a way. Perhaps that's where things get mucked up with trying to hyperanylize every word of the Document.
Of course, my opinion may be a tad biased
 

Bassbob

Hellcat
Here's a rhetorical question. Since keeping a "well regulated militia" is the reason the right to keep and bear arms in 2A exists, what do members consider a "well regulated militia" to be? How do you define the "militia" and what do you think is meant by "well regulated"? Who regulates it? To what extent? For what purpose? Who is in charge of it?


You are misreading the amendment. I suggest you go back and read Madison's 3 drafts he wrote prior to the BOR for a look at what the reason for the 2A is. Besides, if you ( and I mean liberals or anti-gunners, not you personally) want to misinterpret the militia clause as something more than a descriptor and you view it as a prerequisite for exercising 2A rights, it wouldn't help their cause. A militia is pretty much every able bodied man in the country. And well regulated could be anything. Proud Boys, Those ranchers in Montana, the KKK, they're all pretty well regulated.
 
I think the concept of a well regulated militia in the day envisioned that, when called to arms by competent state authority, often ad hoc as needed, all able bodied civilian men would respond with equipment, arms, and rations necessary for a campaign. They would be under the command of state officers. Many of those militias were formed to counter Indian attacks and other predations. Of course they would need appropriate arms in order to respond.

The Minutemen, dated back to the 1600's, were connected to formal military units but were local community centered. The Minuteman concept evolved into the National Guard at the outset of WWI. It is important to note that National Guard troops remain under command of the governor, unless federalized by the President.

But many militias were independently formed in the states and territories. The early Texas Rangers, Arizona Rangers, Indiana Rangers, Kentucky Militia, Pennsylvania Line, etc are a few examples. Early militiamen would have been expected to be individually capable of sustaining themselves for at least a few days. Firearms ownership and proficiency would have been a given. (Of course we know the NRA was formed following the Civil War out of concern that young men know how to shoot.) Many of those state militias morphed into law enforcement organizations.

The practice of bringing personal firearms to war carried through to WWII. As a young man I spoke to a WWI veteran (sniper) who said when called up for the war he was ordered to bring with him a rifle. My wife's grandfather loaned a rifle to a friend who enlisted immediately after Pearl Harbor as he was told to bring a rifle to training.

Most of us are familiar with the anecdote that the Japanese would not undertake a land invasion of the U.S. Mainland because there would be a rifle "behind every blade of grass". I think the Judge's comments about the AR being suited for home defense and for war in national defense brings current context to what was meant by "well regulated militia" in the 2nd Amendment.
 

benstt

Professional
Founding Member
You are misreading the amendment. I suggest you go back and read Madison's 3 drafts he wrote prior to the BOR for a look at what the reason for the 2A is. Besides, if you ( and I mean liberals or anti-gunners, not you personally) want to misinterpret the militia clause as something more than a descriptor and you view it as a prerequisite for exercising 2A rights, it wouldn't help their cause. A militia is pretty much every able bodied man in the country. And well regulated could be anything. Proud Boys, Those ranchers in Montana, the KKK, they're all pretty well regulated.
Its just a rhetorical exercise. I'm not going to argue anything.
 

Talyn

Hellcat
Founding Member
Source: Cornell Law School - Legal Information Institute

The Second Amendment is naturally divided into two parts: its prefatory clause (“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State”) and its operative clause (“the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed”).

...the “states’ rights” thesis emphasized the importance of the prefatory clause, arguing that the purpose of the clause was to protect the states in their authority to maintain formal, organized militia units. The “individual rights” thesis emphasized the operative clause, so that individuals would be protected in the ownership, possession, and transportation of firearms.

....It was not until 2008 that the Supreme Court definitively came down on the side of an "individual rights” theory. Relying on new scholarship regarding the origins of the Amendment,11 the Court in District of Columbia v. Heller12 confirmed what had been a growing consensus of legal scholars—that the rights of the Second Amendment adhered to individuals. The Court reached this conclusion after a textual analysis of the Amendment,13 an examination of the historical use of prefatory phrases in statutes, and a detailed exploration of the 18th century meaning of phrases found in the Amendment.
 

Talyn

Hellcat
Founding Member
Those that wish to become more familiar with the rationale why & how the Founding Fathers developed the Second Amendment should consider Stephen P. Halbrooks' book - "The Founders' Second Amendment - Origins of the Right to Bear Arms", as well as his other various books on this subject.
 
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benstt

Professional
Founding Member
I think we're going to have a good discussion on this one. I hope it keeps going. I'm looking forward to reading people's opinions.
 

jumpinjoe

Professional
Here's a rhetorical question. Since keeping a "well regulated militia" is the reason the right to keep and bear arms in 2A exists, what do members consider a "well regulated militia" to be? How do you define the "militia" and what do you think is meant by "well regulated"? Who regulates it? To what extent? For what purpose? Who is in charge of it?
Well, not rhetorically, here's the meaning of the phrase "Well Regulated" as it was at the time the 2nd amendment was written. Here's a hint ..... it has absolutely nothing to do with 'regulations' as we understand them today, and as some/many anti-gun people would have us believe was the intent in the 2nd.
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The meaning of the phrase "well-regulated" in the 2nd amendment

From: Brian T. Halonen <halonen@csd.uwm.edu>


The following are taken from the Oxford English Dictionary, and bracket in time the writing of the 2nd amendment:

1709: "If a liberal Education has formed in us well-regulated Appetites and worthy Inclinations."

1714: "The practice of all well-regulated courts of justice in the world."

1812: "The equation of time ... is the adjustment of the difference of time as shown by a well-regulated clock and a true sun dial."

1848: "A remissness for which I am sure every well-regulated person will blame the Mayor."

1862: "It appeared to her well-regulated mind, like a clandestine proceeding."

1894: "The newspaper, a never wanting adjunct to every well-regulated American embryo city."

The phrase "well-regulated" was in common use long before 1789, and remained so for a century thereafter. It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected. Establishing government oversight of the people's arms was not only not the intent in using the phrase in the 2nd amendment, it was precisely to render the government powerless to do so that the founders wrote it.

http://www.constitution.org/cons/wellregu.htm
 

benstt

Professional
Founding Member
Well, not rhetorically, here's the meaning of the phrase "Well Regulated" as it was at the time the 2nd amendment was written. Here's a hint ..... it has absolutely nothing to do with 'regulations' as we understand them today, and as some/many anti-gun people would have us believe was the intent in the 2nd.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The meaning of the phrase "well-regulated" in the 2nd amendment

From: Brian T. Halonen <halonen@csd.uwm.edu>


The following are taken from the Oxford English Dictionary, and bracket in time the writing of the 2nd amendment:

1709: "If a liberal Education has formed in us well-regulated Appetites and worthy Inclinations."

1714: "The practice of all well-regulated courts of justice in the world."

1812: "The equation of time ... is the adjustment of the difference of time as shown by a well-regulated clock and a true sun dial."

1848: "A remissness for which I am sure every well-regulated person will blame the Mayor."

1862: "It appeared to her well-regulated mind, like a clandestine proceeding."

1894: "The newspaper, a never wanting adjunct to every well-regulated American embryo city."

The phrase "well-regulated" was in common use long before 1789, and remained so for a century thereafter. It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected. Establishing government oversight of the people's arms was not only not the intent in using the phrase in the 2nd amendment, it was precisely to render the government powerless to do so that the founders wrote it.

http://www.constitution.org/cons/wellregu.htm
Good one. Keep it going. I'm enjoying seeing how our members' answers to that position.
 

Talyn

Hellcat
Founding Member
As per & in addition to jumpinjoes' post in David McCulloughs' book - "1776" General George Wahington,when arriving at Brooklyn (during theAugust 1776 battles around New York)..."Washington was outraged by what he saw, and in a letter written later that day, he lectured Old Put as he might the greenist lieutenant. All "irregularities" must cease at once. "The distinction between a well-regulated army and a mob is the good order and discipline of the first, and the licentious and disorderly behavior of thr latter."

General Washington clearly ment that in the lexicon of the day that the term "well-regulated" ment "well-trained" in the understanding of today.

 

Talyn

Hellcat
Founding Member
An opinion is a judgement, viewpoint, or statement that is not conclusive, rather than facts, which are true statements.
 

benstt

Professional
Founding Member
Call it what you want, dude. I presented a common argument to the forum and asked how they'd answer it. If you want to discuss the historical context, be my guest. People can can respond however they want. I don't care if they're opinions or not.
 
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