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Should You Shoot? Self-Defense Tips You Don’t Know

BlackLion

Operator
Andrew Branca's book The Law of Self Defense does a really nice job of breaking down this down very nicely. In it he explains the five elements of self-defense required to make a successful legal claim of self-defense in a court of law: Innocence, Imminence, Proportionality, Avoidance, and Reasonableness. He provides a good breakdown of what each of these mean, how they apply in case law, and provides good legal strategy if someone should have to fire in self-defense. All of this is explain in a pretty concise book that breaks everything down for the lay person. It is a good compliment to this article and is well-worth a read.
 
I am retired military after 24 years, I've been a firefighter and now work maintenance at a large manufacturing facility and can tell you that most people do not pocess the critical thinking skills or the mental strengths needed to act in any sort of stressful situation, let alone an encounter where they might have to draw their weapon and possibly take another life. I am and have been a concealed carrier for years and believe through my years of various stressful training and experiences that fortunately I am much better suited to deal with instantaneous stressful situations far better than most, but even then you never know how one will react in the face of a deadly encounter. What I am saying is that people need training and must realize that simply having taken the minimum of training to get the CCW or the zero training it takes to simply purchase a weapon doesn't prepare you in the slightest for the possible deadly circumstances you may face.
 

Jimbo

Elite
I like the author's fourth condition - Preclusion. In other words, try to avoid having to shoot the person who is either about to attack you or is actually attacking you. Not only will you possibly avoid having to shoot someone, but if you do end up having to shoot the person, your chances of being found not guilty are a lot better if you can show that you tried to avoid having to shoot the person.
 

Snake45

Master Class
I like the author's fourth condition - Preclusion. In other words, try to avoid having to shoot the person who is either about to attack you or is actually attacking you. Not only will you possibly avoid having to shoot someone, but if you do end up having to shoot the person, your chances of being found not guilty are a lot better if you can show that you tried to avoid having to shoot the person.
Mas Ayoob phrases the standard as "Immediate, otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to innocent human life." (y)
 

conax

Master Class
Laws and their enforcement change with the times, best to keep up with them.
As a 16 year old home alone one Friday night (1970) in Ohio, a burglar broke a window in the garage and had gone inside. My dad kept an M1 carbine out (he loved it and messed with it all the time) so before going outside I put a magazine in it and grabbed a flashlight.
The burglar heard the door and climbed back out the window, and stood there glaring at me in the dark. I dropped the light and raised the rifle and told him he needed to run. When I jacked the action he took off.
Being a kid I reinforced his decision to runnoft with a couple shots into the ground well behind him and he was all assh**es and elbows heading for the overgrown lot one street over.
The neighbors heard the shooting and called the cops so I put away the rifle and sat on the front porch.
I told them the story and they listened, talked to each other, and told me, "if you ever shoot a prowler out here drag him in the house."
I don't want to hurt anyone, but I get angry when people disrespect our property and have a bad temper.
I don't carry guns because the area I live in now is a lot safer than the redneck neighborhood I grew up in.
I was glad that idiot ran off.
 

Invisibleflash

Operator
I like this guy!

article-should-you-shoot-self-defense-tips-you-dont-know-4.png.webp


But I like lasers. Never used with lights combined, but it is an option.

DSC07076 394kb.jpg

Pat McNamara of Panteao Productions makes some good points about possibly losing the fight if we hear something go bump in the night and go investigate in our homes. He is of the school of hiding in your safe place, calling the police and throwing your keys out the window for them to come in.

But it is human nature to go see what the noise is in our homes at 3AM. His thinking is the criminal can hide and see us before we see them and get us first. Another tip he gives is; making a thick bookcase full of fat books to stand behind so the bullets can't penetrate if the attacker shoots through the wall.

But getting back to the street...

It is good to carry less than lethal to try and escape the attack. Nitrogen powered pepper spray, maybe a collapsible baton, pocket folder and tactical flashlight may come in handy.

We can see how things turned out in the Rittenhouse case for self-defense in 2021 America. On one forum they speculated that AG Garland will go after Rittenhouse even if he is found not guilty under civil rights violation.

A big part of the self defense equation is; what state and city are you in? If in a dem run utopia, try and avoid the need for self defense at all cost. Especially if you are a white conservatize.

There are 2 tiers of justice in the USA now. And even if in a rep run local, I've been told many times that shooting someone is not the end of your trouble...it is just the beginning. But you can't think too much about what to do. It is all just very dicey. You think too much with a knife attack and your guts may be spilling out.

I am thinking all this will only get worse and worse as our world keeps decomposing and people get more desperate and hateful. We see the mobs that can extract people out of their cars and stomp them unconscious. Even if the attacker is not armed disparity of force is a big threat.
 
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Rayfil

Alpha
I like this guy!

article-should-you-shoot-self-defense-tips-you-dont-know-4.png.webp


But I like lasers. Never used with lights combined, but it is an option.

View attachment 22026
Pat McNamara of Panteao Productions makes some good points about possibly losing the fight if we hear something go bump in the night and go investigate in our homes. He is of the school of hiding in your safe place, calling the police and throwing your keys out the window for them to come in.

But it is human nature to go see what the noise is in our homes at 3AM. His thinking is the criminal can hide and see us before we see them and get us first. Another tip he gives is; making a thick bookcase full of fat books to stand behind so the bullets can't penetrate if the attacker shoots through the wall.

But getting back to the street...

It is good to carry less than lethal to try and escape the attack. Nitrogen powered pepper spray, maybe a collapsible baton, pocket folder and tactical flashlight may come in handy.

We can see how things turned out in the Rittenhouse case for self-defense in 2021 America. On one forum they speculated that AG Garland will go after Rittenhouse even if he is found not guilty under civil rights violation.

A big part of the self defense equation is; what state and city are you in? If in a dem run utopia, try and avoid the need for self defense at all cost. Especially if you are a white conservatize.

There are 2 tiers of justice in the USA now. And even if in a rep run local, I've been told many times that shooting someone is not the end of your trouble...it is just the beginning. But you can't think too much about what to do. It is all just very dicey. You think too much with a knife attack and your guts may be spilling out.

I am thinking all this will only get worse and worse as our world keeps decomposing and people get more desperate and hateful. We see the mobs that can extract people out of their cars and stomp them unconscious. Even if the attacker is not armed disparity of force is a big threat.
Wish article addressed use of force in defense of others--family, neighbor, local deputy, etc. Plus using lethal force against fleeing bad guys like those burning federal buildings with arshals inside. I am an old guy but seem to remember judge declaring escapee "outlaw" so any one seeing him could kill him. When I was out west they still took rustling seriously re use of force and the old guys from the border patrol still talked about allowing people they knew who worked on local ranches to go back and forth but using lethal force against bandits who crossed the line. Times change but look at the weapons on the Texas patrol boats.
 

Bassbob

Ronin
As B'rer Mas often says (anyone who's ever taken one of his classes has heard it several times), "Let us know how that works for you. I shall wait for you here.";)


I had the county sheriff tell me that once. " Well boys, it's a big county. Sometimes you gotta kill your own snakes. Just make sure they're in the house before you call us".

This was a long time ago, long before Castle, SYG or CC. And that sheriff was a stand up guy. He was sheriff for about 35 years. By the way, this was in response to a prowler call my friend made when we were about 15 and his parents were out of town. First he asked us if we had a gun in the house, which was affirmative.
 
This is a very good thread, very interesting points of view and some fascinating info.

My dad presents and interesting case. He's disabled, he can't move very fast, he can walk but slowly and he usually carries his Glock 30 in a shoulder rig under his jacket or flannel shirt. We've discussed the fact he's not able to move very quickly so retreat in an active shooter situation might be possible but he'd as likely get trampled by other people moving much faster than him. He's slow but he still gets out and shoots now and then and I'd call him a decent shot if I had to classify him. In a case of him not being able to retreat in time during an active shooter, would that have kind of bearing if he had to fight back do you think?
 

conax

Master Class
This is a very good thread, very interesting points of view and some fascinating info.

My dad presents and interesting case. He's disabled, he can't move very fast, he can walk but slowly and he usually carries his Glock 30 in a shoulder rig under his jacket or flannel shirt. We've discussed the fact he's not able to move very quickly so retreat in an active shooter situation might be possible but he'd as likely get trampled by other people moving much faster than him. He's slow but he still gets out and shoots now and then and I'd call him a decent shot if I had to classify him. In a case of him not being able to retreat in time during an active shooter, would that have kind of bearing if he had to fight back do you think?
That's why lawyers carefully vet the jury. With a few old dudes on the jury he'd probably be fine if his life was threatened. (around here, in a big city I couldn't say.)
 

BobM

Hellcat
This is a very good thread, very interesting points of view and some fascinating info.

My dad presents and interesting case. He's disabled, he can't move very fast, he can walk but slowly and he usually carries his Glock 30 in a shoulder rig under his jacket or flannel shirt. We've discussed the fact he's not able to move very quickly so retreat in an active shooter situation might be possible but he'd as likely get trampled by other people moving much faster than him. He's slow but he still gets out and shoots now and then and I'd call him a decent shot if I had to classify him. In a case of him not being able to retreat in time during an active shooter, would that have kind of bearing if he had to fight back do you think?

Your dads scenario could add an interesting twist that's likely more common than some may think? Depending on his ability, circumstances and location, much could change things around. For example, is every area of his surroundings wheel chair normally accessible or not?

Possible escape, retreat or defense options could be all over the place depending just on one area or location of possible altercations. Stairs, doorways may be easy entry or exit for some, but not for all options for everyone or in every case?

May sound odd in some ways, but a shield or armor of some sort may help him too? A baton, cane or rod or some sort of defensive spray may also be some other sorts of options worth considering along with the HG too? Heck, even a boaters canned airhorn may help sometimes in different scenarios? The list could likely go further, but available space and options usually don't.
 
Mas Ayoob phrases the standard as "Immediate, otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to innocent human life." (y)
There’s maybe a practical guideline, and I agree with him that avoiding use of deadly force is preferable for all involved if you safely can, but it’s not necessarily required by law.

In many states, including mine, there is no duty to retreat and stand your ground is the law. In your home, castle doctrine governs in many states and provided the entry was unauthorized and threatening in nature, use of deadly force is usually legal even without the perpetrator using it.
 

Snake45

Master Class
There’s maybe a practical guideline, and I agree with him that avoiding use of deadly force is preferable for all involved if you safely can, but it’s not necessarily required by law.

In many states, including mine, there is no duty to retreat and stand your ground is the law. In your home, castle doctrine governs in many states and provided the entry was unauthorized and threatening in nature, use of deadly force is usually legal even without the perpetrator using it.
Possibly true (I'm not doubting your word), but keep in mind that shooting another human being, even if justified, is likely to be one of the most expensive things you'll ever do in your life. (I could cite a couple cases from today's headlines.) If there's any way to avoid that expense and keep all the good people safe, I'm taking it.
 

Bassbob

Ronin
Possibly true (I'm not doubting your word), but keep in mind that shooting another human being, even if justified, is likely to be one of the most expensive things you'll ever do in your life. (I could cite a couple cases from today's headlines.) If there's any way to avoid that expense and keep all the good people safe, I'm taking it.


That is a specious argument Snake. My state ( and several others) has a pre-emption law which prevents you from being sued civily in the event of a justified self defense shooting. I am also in a gun friendly state. I have yet to see any Missourian who justifiably shot someone in self defense wind up being charged with a crime. At least in the last decade or so. So maybe a couple of caveats to your statement are in order. - Presuming you live in a state hostile to gun owners and/or presuming you can't accurately define what constitutes a justifiable shooting.
 

Snake45

Master Class
That is a specious argument Snake. My state ( and several others) has a pre-emption law which prevents you from being sued civily in the event of a justified self defense shooting. I am also in a gun friendly state. I have yet to see any Missourian who justifiably shot someone in self defense wind up being charged with a crime. At least in the last decade or so. So maybe a couple of caveats to your statement are in order. - Presuming you live in a state hostile to gun owners and/or presuming you can't accurately define what constitutes a justifiable shooting.
Pretty sure I can accurately define a justifiable shooting. I'm not in a gun-friendly state, though I'm in a fairly gun-friendly area of it, but we live in an age in which unwanted national media attention can descend upon us at any time, drawing down all kinds of hell. If I can avoid any/all of that, I'm perfectly happy to.
 
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