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The Springfield Armory SAINT Line

Why?

Even in a subsonic .300, 5.5” is ridiculous for a rifle cartridge...

In a pistol caliber (9mm, etc) then, sure.
They already have a 5.5 inch barrel one in 5.56 (Saint Edge Pistol). 300blk performs better than 5.56 in short barrels, especially with subsonic rounds. Seems like it is a perfect PDW that performs much better than 9mm. Sig already has one. Would like to see more competition.
 
Why?

Even in a subsonic .300, 5.5” is ridiculous for a rifle cartridge...

In a pistol caliber (9mm, etc) then, sure.
I have the PDW, if it were intended for 100 yard shots, then yes, muzzle velocity would be greatly diminished. But as a personal defense weapon, which means always inside of 20 yards, it packs a wallop greater than most any handgun round.

It's fun to shoot.
 
They already have a 5.5 inch barrel one in 5.56 (Saint Edge Pistol). 300blk performs better than 5.56 in short barrels, especially with subsonic rounds. Seems like it is a perfect PDW that performs much better than 9mm. Sig already has one. Would like to see more competition.
I completely disagree with your statement that the 300BO shoots better then a 5.56 in a short barreled pistol. I owned the Saint Victor in 300BO and even with the adjustable gas block it refused to cycle a subsonic round reliably. The gun was lights out in supersonic. I understand a suppresser would have helped but I wasn’t going to pay the cost of doing that and also have the gun registered with the feds. It was sold. Up until the boating accident I owned the Saint Edge pistol in 5.56/.223 which ate everything I put through it WITHOUT constantly adjusting the gas block.
And before it’s asked I did have dedicated Mags made for the 300BO which made no difference.
 
I completely disagree with your statement that the 300BO shoots better then a 5.56 in a short barreled pistol. I owned the Saint Victor in 300BO and even with the adjustable gas block it refused to cycle a subsonic round reliably. The gun was lights out in supersonic. I understand a suppresser would have helped but I wasn’t going to pay the cost of doing that and also have the gun registered with the feds. It was sold. Up until the boating accident I owned the Saint Edge pistol in 5.56/.223 which ate everything I put through it WITHOUT constantly adjusting the gas block.
And before it’s asked I did have dedicated Mags made for the 300BO which made no difference.
Thanks for sharing your experience. Perhaps that is an issue with the saint line of rifles and why they are not going to offer that caliber.

Has anyone else had problems with 300blk subsonic rounds cycling their Saint rifles?


Almost everything I've read online says, as a general rule, 300 blk performs better in short barrel rifles than 5.56. A simple search "300 blk vs 5.56 short barrel" comes up with list of articles supporting that view. I'll have to search for more on 300blk and the saint line specifically. Special forces apparently is looking at 300blk to replace or supplement what they're using now. It is an extremely versatile cartridge
 

BangBang

Professional
Thanks for sharing your experience. Perhaps that is an issue with the saint line of rifles and why they are not going to offer that caliber.

Has anyone else had problems with 300blk subsonic rounds cycling their Saint rifles?


Almost everything I've read online says, as a general rule, 300 blk performs better in short barrel rifles than 5.56. A simple search "300 blk vs 5.56 short barrel" comes up with list of articles supporting that view. I'll have to search for more on 300blk and the saint line specifically. Special forces apparently is looking at 300blk to replace or supplement what they're using now. It is an extremely versatile cartridge

In terms of short barreled rifles, the 300blk, shortest barrel length performance is 8.5-9” I would not recommend a 5.5” barrel for 300blk, not only would you probably run into reliability issue but most importantly performance issue coming from ammo. Even the SA EVAC barrel is 7.5”. Check this out just to chew on and search others before you make a decision.
 

BangBang

Professional
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In terms of short barreled rifles, the 300blk, shortest barrel length performance is 8.5-9” I would not recommend a 5.5” barrel for 300blk, not only would you probably run into reliability issue but most importantly performance issue coming from ammo. Even the SA EVAC barrel is 7.5”. Check this out just to chew on and search others before you make a decision.
Those are all supersonic. I doubt I would ever run anything but subs in something that short. Won't have enough barrel to achieve top velocity anyway. If you have two bullets leaving the barrel at about the same subsonic speed of around 1000fps the larger bullet is going to have more energy at the barrel and downrange.
 

HansGruber

Hellcat
Those are all supersonic. I doubt I would ever run anything but subs in something that short. Won't have enough barrel to achieve top velocity anyway. If you have two bullets leaving the barrel at about the same subsonic speed of around 1000fps the larger bullet is going to have more energy at the barrel and downrange.

Not quite correct.

Given the same velocity, a heavier bullet will have more energy than a lighter bullet...but size (caliber) is irrelevant. For instance, if you had a 200gr 10mm and a 185gr .45, both at 1000fps...the smaller (10mm) bullet would have more energy.

Either way, however, energy is not the end-all, be-all measure for bullet performance. In fact, it's really a pretty poor measure.

Out of a 5.5” barrel, I’d much sooner have a big, fat, subsonic .45 that's going to be squarely in the window of it's performance envelope (meaning, at least as far as hollow points are concerned—and that's what we use for defense, right?) that's going to open wide and punch deep, instead of a .300 that's probably below its threshold for optimal performance, and may not open up as designed.

Which gets back to my original point I made earlier—5.5” is ridiculously too short for rifle caliber chamberings, and is best left for pistol calibers.
 
Not quite correct.

Given the same velocity, a heavier bullet will have more energy than a lighter bullet...but size (caliber) is irrelevant. For instance, if you had a 200gr 10mm and a 185gr .45, both at 1000fps...the smaller (10mm) bullet would have more energy.

Either way, however, energy is not the end-all, be-all measure for bullet performance. In fact, it's really a pretty poor measure.

Out of a 5.5” barrel, I’d much sooner have a big, fat, subsonic .45 that's going to be squarely in the window of it's performance envelope (meaning, at least as far as hollow points are concerned—and that's what we use for defense, right?) that's going to open wide and punch deep, instead of a .300 that's probably below its threshold for optimal performance, and may not open up as designed.

Which gets back to my original point I made earlier—5.5” is ridiculously too short for rifle caliber chamberings, and is best left for pistol calibers.
By larger I meant grains, not caliber. You are correct, I should have said mass, or heavier.

Well the US military apparently seems to think 300 blk is a better option. Or at least they did. It is what their special ops units want. They want the heavier bullets while still maintaining some rifle round capability. https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog...-m4a1-personal-defense-weapon-conversion-kit/
I believe that is why the Saint Edge, Honey Badger, SIg Rattler are around. Sig seems to be the best so far but I don't think they have met the barrel swap requirement yet. I'm not so sure they really need the barrel swap. Heavy subsonic rounds for close in work. Then just change magazines to a lighter bullet in 300blk to increase their reach compared to pistol calibers. Perfect? No, but a damn good compromise. And if they could do a quick barrel swap it would be an amazing platform.
 

HansGruber

Hellcat
By larger I meant grains, not caliber. You are correct, I should have said mass, or heavier.

Well the US military apparently seems to think 300 blk is a better option. Or at least they did. It is what their special ops units want. They want the heavier bullets while still maintaining some rifle round capability. https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog...-m4a1-personal-defense-weapon-conversion-kit/
I believe that is why the Saint Edge, Honey Badger, SIg Rattler are around. Sig seems to be the best so far but I don't think they have met the barrel swap requirement yet. I'm not so sure they really need the barrel swap. Heavy subsonic rounds for close in work. Then just change magazines to a lighter bullet in 300blk to increase their reach compared to pistol calibers. Perfect? No, but a damn good compromise. And if they could do a quick barrel swap it would be an amazing platform.
.MIL is running 8.5-10.5” barrels with .300; 10.5-12.5“ with 5.56.

They aren’t running the 5.5” barrels.
 
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