testtest

The True Distance of a Typical Gunfight

the obsrver

Master Class
Yeah but trends change. I am not so concerned with a "gunfight" as I am with active shooters. NO way I am going to walk up to an active shooter and I am going to want to put them down from as far away as possible. On a gunfight, I would say the winner is not even the best shot (due to being close in range) but rather who drew first or can draw the fastest.
 
The rule of 3's is as operative today as it ever was, but just because we know most encounters happen up close does not mean we should forget developing skills for shooting at distance. The reason we spend so much time training for bad breath distance encounters is not only that they are the most likely, but also because they happen so damn fast. Training for close encounters incorporates factors other than just shooting. Like other defensive maneuvers, the draw, and moving, and going to cover, and getting inside your opponent's decision loop, and follow through, and dealing with tunnel vision and auditory exclusion.

But distance is your friend in a lethal encounter. It gives you more options. Get as much distance and cover between and your opponent as possible.

I spend 80% of my time training for up close and personal encounters. Then I move back, to the 25, and 50, and then on to the 100. I know I can hit an IDPA silhouette 8 out of 10 times from 100 yards with iron sights on my carry pistol, but only because I and a few friends have sent a LOT of rounds down range practicing it. This is why, by the way, I carry a full sized pistol as my daily carry rather than one of my micro pistols-I am more precise with it. However, a late friend who was a DEA instructor could hit an 8" plate consistently with a Sig P238 .380 at 100. It's all about building skills. I don't advocate everyone training at 100 yards with their pistol, but it is good to know the capabilities are there and to have the option if you need it. The point being, if you don't practice at distance with the gun you carry, optics or not, you probably are not going to hit the target if you find yourself in that situation.

As far as optics on your carry pistol, do what you have to do to win. Cheat if it works. As Bill Jordan said, there is no second place winner.
 

the obsrver

Master Class
The rule of 3's is as operative today as it ever was, but just because we know most encounters happen up close does not mean we should forget developing skills for shooting at distance. The reason we spend so much time training for bad breath distance encounters is not only that they are the most likely, but also because they happen so damn fast. Training for close encounters incorporates factors other than just shooting. Like other defensive maneuvers, the draw, and moving, and going to cover, and getting inside your opponent's decision loop, and follow through, and dealing with tunnel vision and auditory exclusion.

But distance is your friend in a lethal encounter. It gives you more options. Get as much distance and cover between and your opponent as possible.

I spend 80% of my time training for up close and personal encounters. Then I move back, to the 25, and 50, and then on to the 100. I know I can hit an IDPA silhouette 8 out of 10 times from 100 yards with iron sights on my carry pistol, but only because I and a few friends have sent a LOT of rounds down range practicing it. This is why, by the way, I carry a full sized pistol as my daily carry rather than one of my micro pistols-I am more precise with it. However, a late friend who was a DEA instructor could hit an 8" plate consistently with a Sig P238 .380 at 100. It's all about building skills. I don't advocate everyone training at 100 yards with their pistol, but it is good to know the capabilities are there and to have the option if you need it. The point being, if you don't practice at distance with the gun you carry, optics or not, you probably are not going to hit the target if you find yourself in that situation.

As far as optics on your carry pistol, do what you have to do to win. Cheat if it works. As Bill Jordan said, there is no second place winner.
That is some good shooting there buddy. I am one of those "ok now move it out further" types pf people and I have never even thought about trying a pistol at 100 yards. Which is strange because I have always pushed the limits and my ability when shooting.
My wife has been to the range 3 times with her shield and is good enough that I had her move it out further. She still needs to shoot closer up, but a mag or two each trip is now sent further down range. I know her and she is very competitive and when we move it out further it keeps her interested and striving to be better.
 
That is some good shooting there buddy. I am one of those "ok now move it out further" types pf people and I have never even thought about trying a pistol at 100 yards. Which is strange because I have always pushed the limits and my ability when shooting.
My wife has been to the range 3 times with her shield and is good enough that I had her move it out further. She still needs to shoot closer up, but a mag or two each trip is now sent further down range. I know her and she is very competitive and when we move it out further it keeps her interested and striving to be better.
If you can hit minute of man at 25 yards, you can hit at 100, if you practice.
 

Recusant

Master Class
Yeah but trends change. I am not so concerned with a "gunfight" as I am with active shooters. NO way I am going to walk up to an active shooter and I am going to want to put them down from as far away as possible. On a gunfight, I would say the winner is not even the best shot (due to being close in range) but rather who drew first or can draw the fastest.
Obsrver, in today's world if you encounter an active shooter situation there's a good chance he or she will be armed with a rifle. I'm one that believes it's better to be skilled than to count on being lucky because lady luck may be busy elsewhere when I might need her. That said I suspect that even a very skilled pistol shot would come up short against an average person with a rifle if distance was a factor. In a situation like that whether you survived because you were skilled or got by on luck would probably be a 50/50 either way.
 
Another personal observation from the original article on the use of red dot sights on your carry pistol. I have been to a couple of instructor courses on red dot sights on duty pistols and have fired quite a few rounds in daylight and night fire with the red dot. Red dot technique changes things because you are focused on the target rather than the front sight. Once you learn to consistently present the pistol properly to get the dot to show up instantly, you have made an improvement in technique that will make you better with red dots or iron sights. What I have discovered in timed exercises is that I am much faster with the red dot, but I am more precise with shot placement using iron sights. At close distances the red dot can bring advantage because when things are happening fast you are probably focusing on the threat anyway. At 3 yards if you get the target in the "window" you are going to hit the target. At around 7 yards or so the red dot comes into its own for accurate speed on target. Once you get to 15 yards and beyond the advantage of the red dot starts to taper off. Not to say you won't hit the target, just that shot placement may not be as precise as with irons. My experience, FWIW
 

Bassbob

Hellcat
Another personal observation from the original article on the use of red dot sights on your carry pistol. I have been to a couple of instructor courses on red dot sights on duty pistols and have fired quite a few rounds in daylight and night fire with the red dot. Red dot technique changes things because you are focused on the target rather than the front sight. Once you learn to consistently present the pistol properly to get the dot to show up instantly, you have made an improvement in technique that will make you better with red dots or iron sights. What I have discovered in timed exercises is that I am much faster with the red dot, but I am more precise with shot placement using iron sights. At close distances the red dot can bring advantage because when things are happening fast you are probably focusing on the threat anyway. At 3 yards if you get the target in the "window" you are going to hit the target. At around 7 yards or so the red dot comes into its own for accurate speed on target. Once you get to 15 yards and beyond the advantage of the red dot starts to taper off. Not to say you won't hit the target, just that shot placement may not be as precise as with irons. My experience, FWIW


I believe that is exactly correct.
 

KillerFord1977

Hellcat
Founding Member
If you can hit minute of man at 25 yards, you can hit at 100, if you practice.
👆👆👆 this

your not looking for .5 inch groups at 100, you are looking for torso hits. As Hayes states, if you can hit at 25 you can at 100. Just note to yourself on expectations that your looking for consistent hits, not groups.
 

KillerFord1977

Hellcat
Founding Member
Another personal observation from the original article on the use of red dot sights on your carry pistol. I have been to a couple of instructor courses on red dot sights on duty pistols and have fired quite a few rounds in daylight and night fire with the red dot. Red dot technique changes things because you are focused on the target rather than the front sight. Once you learn to consistently present the pistol properly to get the dot to show up instantly, you have made an improvement in technique that will make you better with red dots or iron sights. What I have discovered in timed exercises is that I am much faster with the red dot, but I am more precise with shot placement using iron sights. At close distances the red dot can bring advantage because when things are happening fast you are probably focusing on the threat anyway. At 3 yards if you get the target in the "window" you are going to hit the target. At around 7 yards or so the red dot comes into its own for accurate speed on target. Once you get to 15 yards and beyond the advantage of the red dot starts to taper off. Not to say you won't hit the target, just that shot placement may not be as precise as with irons. My experience, FWIW
I regulary train with the draw position on the far left of this photo. Draw, jab the butt of the pistol into your hip and fire at the target from 3 & 5 yards away. You wont alway have a chance for a full draw or arm position to shoot. Its all pure muscle memory and technique drill. No sights involved, but rather quick torso shots to bring down a close in attacker.

red dots or iron sights dont even come into play on this drill.

6691B893-A3A1-4314-857E-8A00E21E0712.jpeg
 

the obsrver

Master Class
Obsrver, in today's world if you encounter an active shooter situation there's a good chance he or she will be armed with a rifle. I'm one that believes it's better to be skilled than to count on being lucky because lady luck may be busy elsewhere when I might need her. That said I suspect that even a very skilled pistol shot would come up short against an average person with a rifle if distance was a factor. In a situation like that whether you survived because you were skilled or got by on luck would probably be a 50/50 either way.
Even of they have a rifle, almost all pf them are closer then 100 yards. I think the use of a rifle is changing as well. I am thinking more like that one that just happened in Florida at the grocery store.
 
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