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Why I Was Wrong About Red Dots…

jumpinjoe

Professional
Smithfield is Chinese owned. Just sayin’.
Thanks for the tip Bob (y)(y)(y)....... don't think I was aware of that, but then neither is probably another 300m Americans. And not particularly proud of it either, again like most Americans, but ....... what are we gonna do about it? Unfortunately some folks way above our pay grade makes those deals and we have little to nothing to say about it.

But, ignoring all that, the sausage is still good! Don't ya' think? :):):)
 
I'm using a Sig Romeo Zero on mine. It does feel chintzy, but so far it's been holding up to the round count. I haven't started edc'ing it yet though. The included screws needs a few threads shaved off, otherwise they're too long, and recoil will cause the battery to lose contact. It does co-witness, by like half the front sight is covered.
Don’t really like that you can’t see 1/2 the front sight. It’s probably fine in practice, but it’s kind of a bugaboo of mine in choosing a RDS. Still haven’t seen anything other than the Shields that have a 100% cowitness. Not sure why no one has come up with that...
 

jumpinjoe

Professional
Don’t really like that you can’t see 1/2 the front sight. It’s probably fine in practice, but it’s kind of a bugaboo of mine in choosing a RDS. Still haven’t seen anything other than the Shields that have a 100% cowitness. Not sure why no one has come up with that...
I agree with you on this. The 'lower third' co-witness is OK with a rifle with a long sight radius where you can more easily raise/lower your line of sight , but not so good on a short sight radius pistol. It does make a real difference.

And there is one other sight that will 'Absolute co-witness' with the irons on the Hellcat. For some reason I can never think of the name of it since I use the SMSc Shield, but someone here will know it.
 
Don’t really like that you can’t see 1/2 the front sight. It’s probably fine in practice, but it’s kind of a bugaboo of mine in choosing a RDS. Still haven’t seen anything other than the Shields that have a 100% cowitness. Not sure why no one has come up with that...
Just as a heads up - in your development as a shooter - you're not "all in" on the dot you're probably still subconsciously using the irons to align the gun. This is going to prevent you from developing a really strong index and really developing speed through hard target focus - which is what you need/want. Back up irons are back ups - if you develop your index to shoot a dot well - you don't need the full sight picture. When you do it right - you'll target focus with the irons if the dot were every to go down as well.

The only thing the irons do coming up into the sight picture further is limit the amount of information you're getting from the dot and the target since they obscure part of the window. I'd rather have less obstruction of the window and itty bitty backups for my dot then treat the dot as a glorified fiber optic pipe on full cowitness.
 
Just as a heads up - in your development as a shooter - you're not "all in" on the dot you're probably still subconsciously using the irons to align the gun. This is going to prevent you from developing a really strong index and really developing speed through hard target focus - which is what you need/want. Back up irons are back ups - if you develop your index to shoot a dot well - you don't need the full sight picture. When you do it right - you'll target focus with the irons if the dot were every to go down as well.

The only thing the irons do coming up into the sight picture further is limit the amount of information you're getting from the dot and the target since they obscure part of the window. I'd rather have less obstruction of the window and itty bitty backups for my dot then treat the dot as a glorified fiber optic pipe on full cowitness.
I'd be all in on the dot, just as I am on my AR with a RDS. Iron sights would be completely backup. And if they are needed as a backup, I want the whole picture there, not a half a front sight with the bottom half being blocked out by the base of the RDS. If I'm using my weapon in a defensive situation and my RDS craps out on me, I want every advantage and do not want to be hindered in any way. Only seeing half of a front sight would be a hinderance in my book.
 
I'd be all in on the dot, just as I am on my AR with a RDS. Iron sights would be completely backup. And if they are needed as a backup, I want the whole picture there, not a half a front sight with the bottom half being blocked out by the base of the RDS. If I'm using my weapon in a defensive situation and my RDS craps out on me, I want every advantage and do not want to be hindered in any way. Only seeing half of a front sight would be a hinderance in my book.
I don't think we're communicating well. Learning to shoot a dot on a pistol well allows you to target focus with irons as well. a full sight picture is irrelevant since most sights are sighted to to the tip of the front sight blade. If you're frosty with your given window and your index is strong - the sights should be aligned anyway you're just looking for a different confirmation from the irons than you do the dot. It's not an advantage - more of the target is occluded is all. 3 nubs at the bottom of the window is really all that's necessary to put rounds where they need to go.

The difficulty of pistol shots at defensive ranges - if you're practiced - equal height equal light for a softball / cantaloupe sized target isn't really in the equation - it's "is the front sight visible between the back two and the gun centered over the aiming area - roughly. If you're just trying to chew up B8s then that's a different story.

A lot of dogma about how to use iron sights is in the process of changing as target focus becomes increasingly relevant as a technique.
 

BangBang

Professional
This picture is not the greatest in terms of detail, and after reading the post above I don’t know what all was said. I’m sure I will say what has been said but if anyone has read my post on dots, you know I love em’. They are quick and with the right rig not to cumbersome. In my opinion you need some suppressor height sights to co-witness your dot. I prefer to run my dot right on top of my front sight and I was getting a little confused on what some of the post were saying above in terms of 1/3 or 1/5 ect. This picture, not mine will somewhat show how I run mine, as it is sits on my front post, and and a 1/4” high where if, for some reason my dot goes down I’m still in it with my sights.
ae85f7d42eb1eff3b4d532bc8759da74.jpg
 
This picture is not the greatest in terms of detail, and after reading the post above I don’t know what all was said. I’m sure I will say what has been said but if anyone has read my post on dots, you know I love em’. They are quick and with the right rig not to cumbersome. In my opinion you need some suppressor height sights to co-witness your dot. I prefer to run my dot right on top of my front sight and I was getting a little confused on what some of the post were saying above in terms of 1/3 or 1/5 ect. This picture, not mine will somewhat show how I run mine, as it is sits on my front post, and and a 1/4” high where if, for some reason my dot goes down I’m still in it with my sights.
ae85f7d42eb1eff3b4d532bc8759da74.jpg
Now that is a 100% cowitness. If the RDS ever malfunctioned or ran out of batteries in a critical situation, you'd still be 100% able to use your iron sights as if the RDS wasn't there.

Couple reasons why I want to get an RDS for my Hellcat at some point soon. One is because my eyes are getting a little old. In certain lighting situations, it's hard to pick up the sights and focus on the target. The other is that I am right handed and left eye dominant. I know others have said that I can change my stance or where I hold the pistol to be able to keep both eyes open. But, I have tried that and am just not comfortable.

I have not shot a pistol with a RDS on it before. However, I do have a RDS on my AR-15 pistol. I know that I can keep both eyes open with that, completely focus on the target and still have the RDS imposed on the target with both eyes open. I REALLY like it. I have been shooting rifles with scopes for MANY years and there is no way for me to shoot with both eyes open. My left eye takes over and I can't see crap through the scope.

The other advantage I see with the RDS is that the red dot can be anywhere on the lens and you are going to hit what you're aiming at. It's much easier than lining up three small dots so close to my face when I need reading glasses to see and one eye has to be closed.

BUT, I am a true believer that if it can go wrong, it probably will. And being able to use iron sights if the RDS goes out is a big one for me. I trust a RDS, but I also want to plan for the worst...
 
56BE34F1-CFE8-41FF-A699-493DB16EAD55.jpeg

This is the cowitness on my EDC - the sights come up about 1/5th the way of the screen - this is - in my opinion - ideal for cowitness irons - it doesn't occlude the window too much. The sights are there if you need them - it's like shooting an LCP.

If the sights were fully visible through the window - that's a true cowitness. I don't think anyone really wants that. You lose too much of the window. If the sights are visible - somewhat - through the window - then that's "good enough". They're there if you need them - but the whole "if it goes out when I need it" - as you shoot dots more the "downtime" on a dot is near zero. It definitely makes sense to have backups - but let them be backups.
 

BooVuc

Operator
In the larger pic posted prior, this is where I keep the dot, (and POI), on my Hellcat using the Romeo Zero. It has been on my gun for one year now and I have no reasons to give it up. And my SwampFox is still in the box, unopened in a drawer.
The RZ has held up to every single day carry, every other week at the range and the slings and arrows of me laying on it, sitting in a car seat and staying in a car while I'm in working in cold/heat/etc. (no guns inside buildings at work).
Always holds zero. Nary a problem.
 

jumpinjoe

Professional
This picture is not the greatest in terms of detail, and after reading the post above I don’t know what all was said. I’m sure I will say what has been said but if anyone has read my post on dots, you know I love em’. They are quick and with the right rig not to cumbersome. In my opinion you need some suppressor height sights to co-witness your dot. I prefer to run my dot right on top of my front sight and I was getting a little confused on what some of the post were saying above in terms of 1/3 or 1/5 ect. This picture, not mine will somewhat show how I run mine, as it is sits on my front post, and and a 1/4” high where if, for some reason my dot goes down I’m still in it with my sights.
ae85f7d42eb1eff3b4d532bc8759da74.jpg
This is as good an example of 'Absolute' or 100% co-witnessing with factory installed iron sights as you'll likely ever see.
 

bigx5murf

Elite
My hellcat osp is my first RDS on a pistol. I've owned it since Nov 2020, and I carried it sparingly until recently. Because I was waiting to get more trigger time on it. After bringing this setup, twice, to a range where I could run and gun as opposed to just shooting from a lane. I'm ready to retire my XD9sc, with night sights from my carry, with this RDS hellcat osp.
 
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