Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “F-86 Sabre — America’s MiG Killer” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/f-86-sabre/.
F-86 Sabre — America’s MiG Killer
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
Snake45
Professional
Good article! Good stuff.
The "cover photo" shows F-86Fs of the 51st Fighter Interceptor Wing in Korea, late-war.
Not all F-86Hs had the 4x20mm armament. The first batches of them had the same 6x.50 armament of previous Sabres. I don't know the number of each off the top of my head, but I have that information around here somewhere, I assure you.
I THINK the early F-86Hs might have been the last fighters built for the USAF armed with .50s, but I'd have to doublecheck that.
Many of the pics in the article are of F-86As of the 4FG/4FIW in the first year or so of the Korean War.
The "cover photo" shows F-86Fs of the 51st Fighter Interceptor Wing in Korea, late-war.
Not all F-86Hs had the 4x20mm armament. The first batches of them had the same 6x.50 armament of previous Sabres. I don't know the number of each off the top of my head, but I have that information around here somewhere, I assure you.
I THINK the early F-86Hs might have been the last fighters built for the USAF armed with .50s, but I'd have to doublecheck that. Many of the pics in the article are of F-86As of the 4FG/4FIW in the first year or so of the Korean War.
HayesGreener
Ronin
I was stationed at a small USAF ADC detachment at a municipal air terminal in California in 1970. It was an F106 Delta Dart ADC alert facility. The detachment commander was a Vietnam and Korea vet. There was an F86 that he used as a base flight aircraft. I always thought it was a sleek looking aircraft.
Snake45
Professional
One of my unit's old F-86Hs was restored for static display a few years ago, and AFAIK is still on display in Front Royal, VA.
Al Ogden, the "Howdy Doody" of the story (far left in the pic), was one of my Dad's best friends. He and his wife Cecelia often played Bridge with my Mom and Dad--probably once a month or so--in our home or theirs. Al and Dad flew F-86Hs together, and then C-119s, and then C-121s. Al left the unit in 1969 to become a fulltime Captain for United Airlines. He passed just a couple years ago, I was saddened to learn. I was able to call his wife on the phone last year, and to my amazement, she remembered me. (Notice this F-86H was armed with 6x.50s, as I mentioned above.)
Al Ogden, the "Howdy Doody" of the story (far left in the pic), was one of my Dad's best friends. He and his wife Cecelia often played Bridge with my Mom and Dad--probably once a month or so--in our home or theirs. Al and Dad flew F-86Hs together, and then C-119s, and then C-121s. Al left the unit in 1969 to become a fulltime Captain for United Airlines. He passed just a couple years ago, I was saddened to learn. I was able to call his wife on the phone last year, and to my amazement, she remembered me. (Notice this F-86H was armed with 6x.50s, as I mentioned above.)
Former 167th Airlift Wing Fighter Jet Finds New Home
FRONT ROYAL, Va. - A F86-H Sabre Jet flown more than 45 years ago at the 167th Airlift Wing in Martinsburg has a new home. The renovated fighter jet is now on display in front of the Front
www.167aw.ang.af.mil
CCJ
Alpha
Being a history buff, I love these historical write-ups. When I was young I used to build model of aircraft. The always came with a short history. This is what ignited my love of history on a larger scale. One hobby led to another. Seems most hobbies in those days were educational and broadened horizons. I had friend who designed and built model gliders from scratch and a few that were into ham radio. A large segment of the economy sprang up to cater to these hobbies. These types of hobbies are nearly dead today. I think the last couple of generation have sat in front of social media and video games. Enough of my soap... keep the historic articles coming! I look forward to them.
wolfpack076
Professional
There was a series on the History Channel if I remember it was called Dogfights and there is a really good episode featuring the F86 over what they called MIG alley in Korea. You can find the videos on You Tube. Really a good watch for anyone interested...
Vegasrails
Alpha
South Korea had close to 100 F-86 Sabre's that were active until at least the late 80's.
KaniksuKidd
Alpha
The author failed to mention that the Sabre is one of the prettiest airplanes ever produced. The Mustang was the best looking prop plane ever.
Glen Danielsen
Alpha
Brothers, my understanding is that, compared to the Mig 15, our F-86 was underpowered and outgunned. I would rather have flown the Soviet shiner, I think.
Cedric
Master Class
There is an F-86 on static display at Hickam AFB. I agree that it's one of the best looking aircraft I've ever seen.
Cedric
Master Class
Umm.. fighter to fighter it's more even than you think. Here are the specs:
North American F-86 Sabre vs Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15 (Fagot) Comparison
Side-by-side comparison of the North American F-86 Sabre against the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15 (Fagot).
www.militaryfactory.com
The F-86 was slightly faster and had a better rate of climb. The Mig had a higher ceiling and automatic cannon because it was a high altitude bomber interceptor. Cannon vs six 50 cal in a dogfight with another fighter could be a wash but I don't know how long the ammo would last in either aircraft. And finally, the Mig may have been formidable when Soviet "honchos" were flying it, but I think our guys were better.
CCJ
Alpha
yeah... but it was ugly. like a flying cigar with wings. hehehe.
From what I read... while it is true that the F86 could be quirky (particularly at takeoff) it was rugged and was capable in the hands of a good pilot, which is where the real rubber meets the road. Many contest are won or lost based on the skill of the pilot. The edge an aircraft might hold over an opponent can compensate the less skilled but only to a small degree. The P-40 was out classed by a wide margin by the zero in China, but the flying tigers racked up an impressive kill ratio. I have read of many encounters of pilots overcoming superior aircraft thought skill alone.
Ezekiel 25:17
Operator
Really enjoyed this article on one of my favorite USAAF/USAF fighter jets. I was a bit dismayed at the doubts cast on the Sabre aerial victories from the Korean War. American forces have always maintained high reporting and confirmation requirements. This is particularly true in comparison to Communist China and Soviet Russia (let alone NKorea).Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “F-86 Sabre — America’s MiG Killer” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/f-86-sabre/.
Following the release of Soviet documentation some in the West have accepted their archived reports as wholly accurate, but information in the Soviet Union was often tailored to meet political expectations and not factual realities. After all, the Soviet Union denied supplying SovAF pilots and other military personnel to North Korea, yet, we know that nearly 72,000 Soviet personnel actually served in the conflict, including the 64th Fighter Aviation Corps (64 IAK) (later "officially" becoming part of the PLAAF). We know that there were over thirteen thousand Mig-15's manufactured and that the Soviet prioritized deliveries of thousands to the Korean theater as UN air forces had decimated older Soviet aircraft being used in the conflict by the Koreans and Communist Chinese.
The two studies claiming a lower US ratio, are in the minority of Western accounts and that should be noted in the presentation. While parsing the ratios down to only Mig-15 versus F-86 may yield a different ratio from the conflicts overall tally, it is still tainted by the fact that NKorea and Communist China have never released their data and the Soviet data is highly suspect.
Unless researchers can prove that their were significant and blatant American miscounts, which to my knowledge they have not, the 10:1 overall aerial kill ratio should not be arbitrarily dismissed, or discounted. The US pilots of the Korean War were more often than not experienced combat veterans of WW2, who had mastered their trade skills against capable Axis pilots in equivalent aircraft in, both, the Pacific and European theaters. They were clearly far more experienced than their NKorean and ChiCom aerial opponents. SovAF pilots had proven to be less capable on average than their German opponents in WW2 and there is no reason to believe they suddenly improved in the few years bewteen conflicts. Even the two minority reports cited in this article demonstrated that against their US adversaries in the Korean War SovAF pilots came up short. The only question is "how short" and unless it can be proven that US tallies were deliberately inflated, or fabricated we should not cast unsupported aspersions on those pilots' combat records, in my opinion.
Ezekiel 25:17
Operator
The F-86H (Fighter/Bomber) were always equipped with quad 20mm cannon. The F-86F was the transitional Sabre model. Wartime testing of “Project Gun-Val” modified F-86F (designated F-86F-2) demonstrated the superiority of cannon armament and munitions over the Heavy Machine Guns.Good article! Good stuff.
The "cover photo" shows F-86Fs of the 51st Fighter Interceptor Wing in Korea, late-war.
Not all F-86Hs had the 4x20mm armament. The first batches of them had the same 6x.50 armament of previous Sabres. I don't know the number of each off the top of my head, but I have that information around here somewhere, I assure you.
Many of the pics in the article are of F-86As of the 4FG/4FIW in the first year or so of the Korean War.
Snake45
Professional
Not so. See the photo and story I posted above. That's an early F-86H armed with 6x.50, as you can clearly see in the photo. It was flown by a friend of my Dad's, a man I knew very well, and was probably flown by my Dad too at least sometimes. My Kid has Dad's logbooks--I can check them for the serial number.
Just had a better idea--I have the unit history book right here. There are five identifiable photos of Sabres in it, all F-86H-1s, and all armed with 6x.50s. In the back of the book is a chart listing all the aircraft ever assigned to the 167th. A quick count shows 29 F-86H-1s with serial numbers ranging from 52-1989 to 52-2089.
As many books on F-86 as I have around here, I should be able to find the block number where the armament switch came, and the serial number, and thus the total number of H-1s produced. Obviously at least 100, from the SNs in the 167th book.
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I'd like to spend a rainy day sitting among a pile of those books.Not so. See the photo and story I posted above. That's an early F-86H armed with 6x.50, as you can clearly see in the photo. It was flown by a friend of my Dad's, a man I knew very well, and was probably flown by my Dad too at least sometimes. My Kid has Dad's logbooks--I can check them for the serial number.
Just had a better idea--I have the unit history book right here. There are five identifiable photos of Sabres in it, all F-86H-1s, and all armed with 6x.50s. In the back of the book is a chart listing all the aircraft ever assigned to the 167th. A quick count shows 29 F-86H-1s with serial numbers ranging from 52-1989 to 52-2089.
As many books on F-86 as I have around here, I should be able to find the block number where the armament switch came, and the serial number, and thus the total number of H-1s produced. Obviously at least 100, from the SNs in the 167th book.