General Quarters: U.S. Navy M14 Rifles

[USMCVIETVET]

Well, Hans...you just can't argue with physics...the 5.56 is NOT effective against an enemy past 500 meters. Actually, it's a lot less than that according to tests run by the Army. Those tests showed the 5.56 round were only able to kill an enemy at >225 meters. I've never been to Afghanistan....thankfully....but you must have been talking to truck drivers or people that weren't out in the wide open spaces. The 101st Airborne and other units started using 7.62 mm M14s in Afghanistan mountain battles because they found the 5.56 varmint rounds totally inadequate. I believe a lot of individuals in the Marines carried AK-47's because they didn't need to be cleaned constantly and always "worked" no matter what.

It's time the military pitch the M-16 and develop a rifle acceptable to the Marines and Army for combat situations that do not involve a leafy jungle and that require more fire power. Maybe they are, I don't know.

In my view the AR-15 is fine for weekend warriors or for personal protection. In a lot of ways the 5.56 round is safer inside buildings with neighbors next door than a shotgun....I've heard that.

Have a wonderful day!

 

[USMCVIETVET]

As with my M1a in similar configuration, minus the stock in this pic, I can tell you thats one heavy SOB rifle to carry around.

In Vietnam we carried the M-14 with two magazines....in the rifle... taped together....40 rounds. No matter the weight it was comforting to know that enemy didn't out gun us. Like anything else, you get used to it over time. The heaviest weapon I ever fired was the BAR...I would not want to carry that thing around fully loaded.

 

[KillerFord1977]

The .308 has its place.
Why over 90+ countries used the FN FAL, G3, etc as their standard battle rifle.
I see the merits in all 3. M16, (AR15), FAL and M14.

Own all 3.
Hogs / Deer, long range plink, Im grabbing the .308
Varmits, Coyotes, short range plink, Im grabbing the 5.56

Edit: I suppose in terms of “mass/ structure” you could liken a human to that of the varmit/‘yote category, thus 5.56 is effective. In my own opinion, I’d still want the .308 for Long Distance if engaging a combatant

 

[C. Sumpin]

Other than it being used in battle, the 16 doesn't meet the "Battle Rifle" criteria.
Never has ... never will.

Qualified with the M1 in basic, M-14 in AIT & the Nam till the M16 arrived, and (the early issues with chamber/jams notwithstanding) the M-16 certainly was a battle rifle superior (hold on Blackfeather, read close) to the M-14 in the bushes, rate of fire/ mag capacity, ease of reload and weight. If it is not a battle rifle then it is the longest running non battle platform used in all branches of the military in all parts of the world. You heard me say that I loved the M-14, and still do, effective in many places. There were very few opportunities for 225 or 500 meter shots in the Nam, plus, a key very effective tactic in the Nam when the dance began was to gain fire superiority which was accomplished with the 16 much better than the 14. If enemy units met in the bush and one were armed with the 14 and the other the 16, guess who was outgunned? Two M16 magazines taped together was 60 rounds. If you remained in VN later than the end of '66 your personal issue weapon would have been the 16 with the 14 no longer an option. It sounds to me as if you had no experience in VN with the M16. Even the current elite Seal teams sometimes opt for the 16 or one of its variants.

So in the big picture, nearly every piece has its place depending on many factors in the theater of operations/specific mission. To me, and tens of thousands of other vets from various wars, the M16 qualifies in every way as a battle rifle.

And to Mr. Killerford: the 5.56 took a lot of small brown (and mean) varmints in Vietnam!

 

[C. Sumpin]

As a postscript to the above, handling characteristics should be mentioned. The length/weight comparison between the 14 & 16, particularly in the bush, (and in the home) is significant. Bringing the 16 to bear, with movement/motion is much easier with the 16 and its pistol grip.

 

[USMCVIETVET]

Qualified with the M1 in basic, M-14 in AIT & the Nam till the M16 arrived, and (the early issues with chamber/jams notwithstanding) the M-16 certainly was a battle rifle superior (hold on Blackfeather, read close) to the M-14 in the bushes, rate of fire/ mag capacity, ease of reload and weight. If it is not a battle rifle then it is the longest running non battle platform used in all branches of the military in all parts of the world. You heard me say that I loved the M-14, and still do, effective in many places. There were very few opportunities for 225 or 500 meter shots in the Nam, plus, a key very effective tactic in the Nam when the dance began was to gain fire superiority which was accomplished with the 16 much better than the 14. If enemy units met in the bush and one were armed with the 14 and the other the 16, guess who was outgunned? Two M16 magazines taped together was 60 rounds. If you remained in VN later than the end of '66 your personal issue weapon would have been the 16 with the 14 no longer an option. It sounds to me as if you had no experience in VN with the M16. Even the current elite Seal teams sometimes opt for the 16 or one of its variants.

So in the big picture, nearly every piece has its place depending on many factors in the theater of operations/specific mission. To me, and tens of thousands of other vets from various wars, the M16 qualifies in every way as a battle rifle.

And to Mr. Killerford: the 5.56 took a lot of small brown (and mean) varmints in Vietnam!

C Sumpin....Say Sumpin.....there you go again making false statements and accusations. When were you in Vietnam? What outfit were you with? Where was your AO?

C Sumpin Sez: >>>There were very few opportunities for 225 or 500 meter shots in the Nam, plus, a key very effective tactic in the Nam when the dance began was to gain fire superiority which was accomplished with the 16 much better than the 14.

C Sumpin you need to go back to school and take geography course. Take a serious look at the terrain in different parts of that country they're not all jungle.

C Sumpin Sez:>>>>>There were very few opportunities for 225 or 500 meter shots in the Nam, plus, a key very effective tactic in the Nam when the dance began was to gain fire superiority which was accomplished with the 16 much better than the 14.

That statement is absolutely ridiculous a fifth grader knows better than that. Ever heard of the M-60?

C Sumpin Sez:>>>>>If enemy units met in the bush and one were armed with the 14 and the other the 16, guess who was outgunned? Two M16 magazines taped together was 60 rounds.

This statement makes me think you were never in Vietnam. ALL M-16's were fitted with 20 round magazines. FEWER THAN 1000 30 round magazines for the M-16 EVER made it to Vietnam because they were experimental. They began working on a thirty round magazine in 1969 and never introduced it to all branches of the military in Vietnam because of developmental problems.

C Sumpin....why don't you be honest and tell the truth or go find another venue. Not everyone is as stupid as you think they are.

 

[HansGruber]

Well, Hans...you just can't argue with physics...the 5.56 is NOT effective against an enemy past 500 meters. Actually, it's a lot less than that according to tests run by the Army. Those tests showed the 5.56 round were only able to kill an enemy at >225 meters. I've never been to Afghanistan....thankfully....but you must have been talking to truck drivers or people that weren't out in the wide open spaces. The 101st Airborne and other units started using 7.62 mm M14s in Afghanistan mountain battles because they found the 5.56 varmint rounds totally inadequate. I believe a lot of individuals in the Marines carried AK-47's because they didn't need to be cleaned constantly and always "worked" no matter what.

It's time the military pitch the M-16 and develop a rifle acceptable to the Marines and Army for combat situations that do not involve a leafy jungle and that require more fire power. Maybe they are, I don't know.

In my view the AR-15 is fine for weekend warriors or for personal protection. In a lot of ways the 5.56 round is safer inside buildings with neighbors next door than a shotgun....I've heard that.

Have a wonderful day!

No, I was talking to serious hitters…people who could opt to carry a M14 (or SCARs, more often) and chose not to, except in very limited, specialized roles.

And if you don’t think 5.56 is lethal at over 225 yards, would you volunteer to catch one at 250 to prove it? This isn’t an offer, but…seriously? It’s plenty lethal at much further distances.

Honestly, the rest is just oft repeated internet myth.

 

[Blackfeather]

The little 16 has it's place, but it really can't perform any better than a Smith Enterprise Crazy Horse M14, or the ARMY's M14EBR-RI.

 

[USMCVIETVET]

No, I was talking to serious hitters…people who could opt to carry a M14 (or SCARs, more often) and chose not to, except in very limited, specialized roles.

And if you don’t think 5.56 is lethal at over 225 yards, would you volunteer to catch one at 250 to prove it? This isn’t an offer, but…seriously? It’s plenty lethal at much further distances.

Honestly, the rest is just oft repeated internet myth.

Hansy....Be truthful now....Have you ever been to Afghanistan, Iraq or Vietnam?

Hans sez: And if you don’t think 5.56 is lethal at over 225 yards, would you volunteer to catch one at 250 to prove it?

I think what the Army thinks.....THE ARMY says it's non lethal...get that Hansy....THE ARMY. Look it up...there is plenty of info on that subject. If you can't find anything I will find it for you.

Hans waves his arm, head held high and dismisses everything, honestly, as oft repeated Internet myth. That Hans, is BS and you know it....then again, maybe you don't. I'll be waiting for your answer on your overseas experience. So you'd like to try to shoot at me at 250 yards?......LOL I'm sure you know a lot of those "serious hitters"...everybody and his brother knows or is a Navy Seal these days.

BTW, Didn't you fall out of the back of a plane or off a tall building?

 

[C. Sumpin]

C Sumpin....Say Sumpin.....there you go again making false statements and accusations. When were you in Vietnam? What outfit were you with? Where was your AO?

C Sumpin Sez: >>>There were very few opportunities for 225 or 500 meter shots in the Nam, plus, a key very effective tactic in the Nam when the dance began was to gain fire superiority which was accomplished with the 16 much better than the 14.

C Sumpin you need to go back to school and take geography course. Take a serious look at the terrain in different parts of that country they're not all jungle.

C Sumpin Sez:>>>>>There were very few opportunities for 225 or 500 meter shots in the Nam, plus, a key very effective tactic in the Nam when the dance began was to gain fire superiority which was accomplished with the 16 much better than the 14.

That statement is absolutely ridiculous a fifth grader knows better than that. Ever heard of the M-60?

C Sumpin Sez:>>>>>If enemy units met in the bush and one were armed with the 14 and the other the 16, guess who was outgunned? Two M16 magazines taped together was 60 rounds.

This statement makes me think you were never in Vietnam. ALL M-16's were fitted with 20 round magazines. FEWER THAN 1000 30 round magazines for the M-16 EVER made it to Vietnam because they were experimental. They began working on a thirty round magazine in 1969 and never introduced it to all branches of the military in Vietnam because of developmental problems.

C Sumpin....why don't you be honest and tell the truth or go find another venue. Not everyone is as stupid as you think they are.

The folks who have been there and done the deed know the score.
You want to argue about every point, I'm not playing that game.
And BTW USMCVIETVET is just the type of handle a draft dodger or wannabe would use.
You may fool some on this forum but you won't fool me. Very few Vets that have been in the thick of it talk as you do.
I've been places when I've overheard a braggart telling stories of his "VN service" when I knew he had never been there.
Tell you something else; HansGruber can school most of us on the technical aspects of a lot of things to do with firearms; you'd do well to listen instead of belittle.

I'm shipping out Bud.......you can argue with whomever wants to play ur game or is as anxious to win a losing argument as you are.

 

[USMCVIETVET]

The folks who have been there and done the deed know the score.
You want to argue about every point, I'm not playing that game.
And BTW USMCVIETVET is just the type of handle a draft dodger or wannabe would use.
You may fool some on this forum but you won't fool me. Very few Vets that have been in the thick of it talk as you do.
I've been places when I've overheard a braggart telling stories of his "VN service" when I knew he had never been there.
Tell you something else; HansGruber can school most of us on the technical aspects of a lot of things to do with firearms; you'd do well to listen instead of belittle.

I'm shipping out Bud.......you can argue with whomever wants to play ur game or is as anxious to win a losing argument as you are.

So long C. Sumpin....you won't tell me the outfit you were in because you weren't there. You are pathetic and you lied repeatedly about things you should have known....i.e. the 20 round magazines. You say things that don't make sense then you get mad when someone calls you out.

 

[C. Sumpin]

Ur a smile sonny boy..........can you say Semper Fi?

 

[USMCVIETVET]

Ur a smile sonny boy..........can you say Semper Fi?

Are you back? I thought you took your little ball and went home.... What outfit were you in in Vietnam? How about those non-existent 30 round magazines you talked about? Where was your AO in Vietnam? Sure, I can say Semper Fi but not to an ignorant plastic banana like yourself.

You won't make things right by admitting "little" mistakes like the 30 round magazines taped together.....NOW THAT really was funny. I have no respect for someone like you. You must be ashamed of your outfit and or service record. You won't answer anything....just crickets. Go away Sumpin until you grow a pair.

 

[C. Sumpin]

Are you back? I thought you took your little ball and went home.... What outfit were you in in Vietnam? How about those non-existent 30 round magazines you talked about? Where was your AO in Vietnam? Sure, I can say Semper Fi but not to an ignorant plastic banana like yourself.

You won't make things right by admitting "little" mistakes like the 30 round magazines taped together.....NOW THAT really was funny. I have no respect for someone like you. You must be ashamed of your outfit and or service record. You won't answer anything....just crickets. Go away Sumpin until you grow a pair.

You are so easy to wind up, think I'll keep you going a while. Now I'm doubting you were ever in the military let alone VN. I've run into fakes like you before, insecure because they never went to the Nam and one of the ways (other than an oversized yap) is to try and tear down/intimidate those who did. Your (angry) swagger of bravado and lack of knowledge is a dead giveaway. Other Vets who served there, even if they were drafted and/or experienced no combat do not despise their comrades. You could be just what you sound like; a trolling troublemaking brat trying hard but failing to persuade the genuine article that you've been somewhere and seen some things that you never did. It may be a temporary balm to your loud ego but you will not find maturity and self confidence in your approach on this forum.

Now. Contact! Guns Up! (that's the M-60 you claim to know so much about). Battery fire for effect!! Bring the overhead! Move on the flank! C'mon you faker, give me all the hot air ya got......................

 

[USMCVIETVET]

Listen to yourself LOL....you are as full of crap as a Christmas goose. You sound like you're drunk. Did you have to man up with a few drinks to keep it going. Actually, you are just nuttier than squirrel ****.

Were you in the Army? Air Force? Civil Air Patrol, the National Guard? You are pathetic you have to get drunk to come back online. Have fun talking to yourself...I'm going to watch a movie.

 

[C. Sumpin]

Listen to yourself LOL....you are as full of crap as a Christmas goose. You sound like you're drunk. Did you have to man up with a few drinks to keep it going. Actually, you are just nuttier than squirrel ****.

Were you in the Army? Air Force? Civil Air Patrol, the National Guard? You are pathetic you have to get drunk to come back online. Have fun talking to yourself...I'm going to watch a movie.

More proof you were never in the military; all mouth, no ears and no self discipline.

 

[KillerFord1977]

Listen to yourself LOL....you are as full of crap as a Christmas goose. You sound like you're drunk. Did you have to man up with a few drinks to keep it going. Actually, you are just nuttier than squirrel ****.

Were you in the Army? Air Force? Civil Air Patrol, the National Guard? You are pathetic you have to get drunk to come back online. Have fun talking to yourself...I'm going to watch a movie.

More proof you were never in the military; all mouth, no ears and no self discipline.

I think you 2 need to chill out and get back to the M14 merits, and strictly the M14

 

[USMCVIETVET]

I think you 2 need to chill out and get back to the M14 merits, and strictly the M14

I agree...I'm done with that whacko. I carried the M14 for most of my tour in Vietnam and never had a problem, not one. I had nothing but problems with the M16 which was common at that time at least in the Marine Corps. I'd like to know how many people out there carried the automatic version and how many had the semiautomatic. I'd also like to hear from the Navy and what experiences they had with the rifle.

How many people out there purchased the M1A and how do you like it? How does it compare with the M14?