I don’t get it.

[HansGruber]

depending on wall type....it's yes and no..................i've tested fmj's on many types of objects. 5.56 m193/m855 WILL go thu the driver's door and exit the passenger's door and keep on scooting. 44mag w/hp's, go thru the driver's door and exit the passenger's door and keep on going............both were at 50 yards when fired. ymmv

hp's aren't always the answer(s)!

You’re smart enough to know that a HP needs a hydraulic medium to expand and upset…but the thin-jacketed varmint rounds fragment upon impact with pretty much anything heavier than a leaf.

And neither M193/M855 fall in that discussion; bringing them up is disingenuous at best; intellectually dishonest at worst.

Again—do those tests with a Nosler Ballistic Tip or a Hornady V-Max and get back to me; we can compare notes.

 

[TEXASforLIFE]

You’re smart enough to know that a HP needs a hydraulic medium to expand and upset…but the thin-jacketed varmint rounds fragment upon impact with pretty much anything heavier than a leaf.

And neither M193/M855 fall in that discussion; bringing them up is disingenuous at best; intellectually dishonest at worst.

Again—do those tests with a Nosler Ballistic Tip or a Hornady V-Max and get back to me; we can compare notes.

lightweight varmint rounds like you say breakup upon impact as they're designed to do....no discussion about that. which leads me to my statement as both are factual since 223 was brought up. handgun rounds are hit and miss on how they'll react whether it being fmj or hp. hp's don't necessarily need hydraulics to open up. not everything comes down to gel testing, just easier to see/record actions.

 

[TEXASforLIFE]

Except…

When you run a 9mm in the 5-6# range, sane as a short-barreled 5.56 or 7.62x39 or .300AAC…

That 9mm feels like a .22 in recoil. Running fast—and I mean as fast as you can hit that trigger, less than .2 seconds between your shots…that 9mm PCC will group TIGHT, if you know what you’re doing. The others…will be looser.

I’ve seen this with m’self behind the trigger (and I don’t consider myself a tyro) as well as considerably more experienced shooters.

PCC’s make it easy to get multiple, rapid, accurate hits on target…and that’s what counts.

Now, is this doable with, say an M1 Carbine?

Absof’inglutely! I love my RockOla, but…it’s a lot easier and cheaper to practice with my Z5RS (MP5 clone), and there’s more options for SD ammo than there is in .30 Carbine…and, it’s a more compact package.

Personally, if someone made a reliable semi-auto .357 Magnum carbine that accepted a 20+ round mag…I’ll buy one, hands down.

But they don’t, so…9mm PCC’s have a very solid role to play.

plus the 9 hold way less powder which can translate to less felt recoil....it's an agreement in case you're wondering

 

[HansGruber]

lightweight varmint rounds like you say breakup upon impact as they're designed to do....no discussion about that. which leads me to my statement as both are factual since 223 was brought up. handgun rounds are hit and miss on how they'll react whether it being fmj or hp. hp's don't necessarily need hydraulics to open up. not everything comes down to gel testing, just easier to see/record actions.

Let’s set this discussion with an agreement that there’s a big difference between expansion and deformation.

A JHP will not expand without hydraulic forces pushing the thinner walls outward; it will, however, deform if it hits something solid that’s harder than it.

If the hollow point fills with a solid, non-liquid medium(eg, wood/dry wall (from a structure), or metal/plastic from a vehicle)…there wil be minimal expansion, but possibly some deformation—agree?

 

[TEXASforLIFE]

Let’s set this discussion with an agreement that there’s a big difference between expansion and deformation.

A JHP will not expand without hydraulic forces pushing the thinner walls outward; it will, however, deform if it hits something solid that’s harder than it.

If the hollow point fills with a solid, non-liquid medium(eg, wood/dry wall (from a structure), or metal/plastic from a vehicle)…there wil be minimal expansion, but possibly some deformation—agree?

well, that's changes everything about previous post..........so, wearing layers regardless of how many starts the process before fluids unless you find a shirtless person being shot

 

[HansGruber]

well, that's changes everything about previous post..........so, wearing layers regardless of how many starts the process before fluids unless you find a shirtless person being shot

No, it doesn’t.

Shoot a JHP through layers of fabric, and there won’t be any expansion…only when it hits a (semi) liquid medium will expansion begin.

 

[TEXASforLIFE]

No, it doesn’t.

Shoot a JHP through layers of fabric, and there won’t be any expansion…only when it hits a (semi) liquid medium will expansion begin.

deformation, not expansion

 

[HansGruber]

deformation, not expansion

Aaaand now you’re double-talking.

Either hydraulics are necessary to make JHP’s expand, or they aren’t (my point: they absolutely ARE).

We’ve already agreed that deformation is different than expansion.

lightweight varmint rounds like you say breakup upon impact as they're designed to do....no discussion about that. which leads me to my statement as both are factual since 223 was brought up. handgun rounds are hit and miss on how they'll react whether it being fmj or hp. hp's don't necessarily need hydraulics to open up. not everything comes down to gel testing, just easier to see/record actions.

What exactly is your point, here?

You concede that rifle caliber (.223/5.56, etc) varmint bullets work as designed, and immediately come apart on impact with any surface—no hydraulics needed.

You also concede (see later posts) that while pistol JHP’s may deform when hitting hard surfaces, they need hydraulic (ie, liquid, squishy, tissue) force applied to the cavity to actually expand.

 

[Lo-Profile]

My wife and I both have AK/AR pistols that use Glock magazines. We each both have Glock 19's as well.
They're our SD guns that we take with us pretty much everywhere we legally can.