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The Rationale for Defensive Hollow Points

The Night Rider said:
Ok
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The reason I brought up the TOI rounds is some folks don’t have the luxury of legally carrying JHp OR in small guns like say a 38 snubs that 1.8-2” barrel doesn’t have enough real estate to get the velocity to expand. The old 158 LSWC HO was designed around a 4” barrel just like the 125 stuff. He 2 exceptions are 135 Gold Dot and 110 Hornady Critical Defence.

So most that have any experience with snubs run 148 wad cutter or even 130 ball and it has proven effective and emulating (to a small degree) what a JHP would do if it actually opens up in a shorter barrel

Below is an article on Haggards results

www.activeresponsetraining.net

Gunsite Revolver Roundup Ballistic Gel Testing

One of the more popular demonstrations at the annual Pat Rogers Memorial Gunsite Revolver Roundup every year is the ballistic gelatin testing block conducted by Chuck Haggard and Mark Fricke. Last week, Mark
www.activeresponsetraining.net www.activeresponsetraining.net
 
ECS686 said:
The reason I brought up the TOI rounds is some folks don’t have the luxury of legally carrying JHp OR in small guns like say a 38 snubs that 1.8-2” barrel doesn’t have enough real estate to get the velocity to expand. The old 158 LSWC HO was designed around a 4” barrel just like the 125 stuff. He 2 exceptions are 135 Gold Dot and 110 Hornady Critical Defence.

So most that have any experience with snubs run 148 wad cutter or even 130 ball and it has proven effective and emulating (to a small degree) what a JHP would do if it actually opens up in a shorter barrel

Below is an article on Haggards results

www.activeresponsetraining.net

Gunsite Revolver Roundup Ballistic Gel Testing

One of the more popular demonstrations at the annual Pat Rogers Memorial Gunsite Revolver Roundup every year is the ballistic gelatin testing block conducted by Chuck Haggard and Mark Fricke. Last week, Mark
www.activeresponsetraining.net www.activeresponsetraining.net
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Interesting information, Thank you.
 
Invisibleflash said:
Good article! I gave up on defense HP ammo a while back. I'm interested in maximum penetration, not maximum mushrooming and minimum penetration. You will never know when you need the extra penetration...

Could not post the whole thing as it is too long. I left out intro and all rimfire tests


*.32 S&W Remington

.32 S&W Remington Lead RN 88 grain 1-7/8" barrel Ruger LCR snubnose.
Penetration:5/8"



*.32 H&R Magnum

.32 H&R Magnum Black Hills 90 grain Lead SWC 1-7/8" barrel Ruger LCR snubnose.
Penetration:3/4"

.32 H&R Magnum Black Hills 85 grain JHP 1-7/8" barrel Ruger LCR snubnose.
Penetration:15/16"

.32 H&R Magnum Hornady FTX Critical Defense 80 grain JHP w/plastic 1-7/8" barrel Ruger LCR snubnose.
Penetration:1-1/8"



*.327 Federal Magnum

.327 Federal Magnum Underwood 95 grain Xtreme Defender solid copper 1500fps 1-7/8" barrel Ruger LCR snubnose.
Penetration:1-1/2"
Notes:Would not eject, jammed in cylinder. Gun cylinder was clean.

.327 Federal Magnum Federal Hydra-Shok 85 grain JHP w/pin 1-7/8" barrel Ruger LCR snubnose.
Penetration:1-1/4"
Notes:Ejected fine.



*.380 Auto

.380 Auto Underwood 68 grain Xtreme Defender solid copper 1300fps 2-3/4" barrel S&W Bodyguard 380
Penetration:1-7/16"

.380 Auto Underwood 100 grain Hard Cast Flat Nose Black Cherry Coated 975fps 2-3/4" barrel S&W Bodyguard 380
Penetration:15/16"

.380 Auto Remington 95 grain FMJ 2-3/4" barrel S&W Bodyguard 380
Penetration:13/16"

.380 Auto Federal 90 grain Hydra-Shok JHP w/pin 2-3/4" barrel S&W Bodyguard 380
Penetration:7/8"

.380 Auto PPU 94 grain FMJ 2-3/4" barrel S&W Bodyguard 380
Penetration:1"

.380 Auto S&W 84 grain JHP (blunt RN HP) 2-3/4" barrel S&W Bodyguard 380
Penetration:1-1/4"
Notes: 1990's vintage - Bangor Punta era.

.380 Auto Cor Bon 90 grain 1050 fps JHP 2-3/4" barrel S&W Bodyguard 380
Penetration:15/16"
Notes: Dirty

.380 Auto Ruger ARX 56 grains composite 2-3/4" barrel S&W Bodyguard 380
Penetration:1"

.380 Auto Hornady 90 grain XTP JHP 2-3/4" barrel S&W Bodyguard 380
Penetration:13/16"

.380 Auto Hornady FTX Critical Defense 90 grain JHP w/plastic 2-3/4" barrel S&W Bodyguard 380
Penetration:7/8"

.380 Auto Winchester 95 grain PDX1 Defender Bonded JHP 2-3/4" barrel S&W Bodyguard 380
Penetration:1-1/8"



*.38 Special- 2-1/8 inch snubnose barrel.

.38 Special Underwood 100 grain Xtreme Defender Solid copper 1200fps 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:1"

.38 Special Remington 130 grain FMJ 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:3/4"

.38 Special PPU 158 grains Lead RN 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:3/4"
Notes:privi Partizan, Serbia. Dirty load.

.38 Special Federal 130 grain FMJ 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:1"

.38 Special Hornady 158 grain XTP JHP 800 fps 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:3/4"+

.38 Special Hornady 125 grain XTP JHP 900 fps 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:3/4"

.38 Special Federal Hydra-Shok JHP w/pin (Grains?) 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:3/4"

.38 Special Winchester Kinetic HE 110 grains 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:15/16"

.38 Special Hornady 110 grains FTX JHP w/plastic tip 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:1-1/8"

.38 Special Hornady Pink Label 90 grains FTX Critical Defense JHP 1200 fps w/plastic tip 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:3/4"+

.38 Special (?) grains? R-P Remington-Peters Lead HP 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:3/4 inch.
Notes:Dirty



*.38 Special - 4 inch barrel.

.38 Special Underwood 100 grain Xtreme Defender Solid copper 1200fps 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:1-1/8"

.38 Special 130 grain Federal FMJ 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:1-1/8"

.38 Special 158 grain PPU / Privi Partizan Lead RN 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:3/4"
Notes:Dirty

.38 Special 130 grain R-P Remington Peters FMJ Flat Tip 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:1-3/16"

.38 Special 158 grain Magtech reloaded Lead RN 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:5/8"

.38 Special 110 grain Winchester Kinetic HE JHP 950 fps 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:1-3/8", 1-3/8" (Tested 2x)

.38 Special 150 grain Winchester Lead RN 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:7/8"

.38 Special 125 grain Hornady XTP JHP 900 fps 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:7/8"

.38 Special 158 grain Hornady XTP JHP 800 fps 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:7/8"

.38 Special 90 grain (Pink Label / Women's load) Hornady SPCL FTX w/plastic 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:9/16" - 5/8"



*.38 Special +P - 4 inch barrel.

.38 Special Underwood 100 grain Xtreme Defender Solid copper 1300fps 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:1-13/16"
Penetration:1-7/8"
Notes:Tested 2x



*.357 Magnum 2-1/8: barrel

.357 Magnum Underwood 120 grain Xtreme Hunter solid copper 1700 fps 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:1-7/8"
Notes:Hurt hand

.357 Hornady grains (?) Critical Defense w/plastic 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:1-3/8"

.357 125 grain Winchester Elite PDX1 Defender Bonded JHP 2-1/8" barrel S&W snubnose
Penetration:1-3/16"



*.357 Magnum 4" barrel

.357 Magnum Underwood Xtreme Hunter solid copper 1700 fps 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:2-1/4"

.357 Hornady grains (?) Critical Defense w/plastic 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:1-7/16"

.357 125 grain Winchester Elite PDX1 Defender Bonded JHP 4" barrel Ruger GP100
Penetration:1-7/16"



*9mm Luger 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS

9mm Luger 90 grains Underwood XT Defender solid copper 1400 fps 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:2-1/8"
Penetration:2"
Notes:Tested 2x

9mm Luger 68 grains Underwood XT Defender Platinum coated solid copper 1700 fps 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:2-1/8"

9mm Luger 115 grains Blazer FMJ 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:1-3/16"

9mm Luger 135 grains Hornady Critical Duty FlexLock HP w/plastic 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:15/16"

9mm Luger 115 grains PMC Bronze FMJ 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:2"
Penetration:2"
Notes:Tested 2x

9mm Luger 115 grains Kinetic HE JHP Winchester 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:1-13/16"

9mm Luger 124 grains Winchester FMJ Target 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:1-1/16"

9mm Luger 115 grains Remington R-P FMJ 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:1-5/8"

9mm Luger+P 115 grains Barnes TAC XPD all copper HP coated 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:15/16"

9mm Luger 100 grains Team Never Quit JAG Frangible 1300 fps HP 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:1-7/8"

9mm Luger 115 grains Herter's nylon jacket solid bullet aluminum case 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:2"

9mm Luger 65 grains Ruger ARX copper/ polymer blend composite bullets 1620 fps 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:1-13/16"

9mm Luger 115 grains Sig Sauer V-Crown JHP 1185 fps 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:1-9/16"

9mm Luger Hornady Critical Defense JHP w/plastic 1620 fps 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:1-3/8"



*9mm Luger +P 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS

9mm Luger 68 grains Underwood XT Defender Platinum coated solid copper 1800 fps 4.9" barrel Beretta 92 FS
Penetration:2-1/2"



*9mm Luger 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC

9mm Luger 68 grains Underwood XT Defender Platinum coated solid copper 1700 fps 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC
Penetration:2-5/8"

9mm Luger 90 grains Underwood XT Defender solid copper 1400 fps 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC
Penetration:2-1/16"

9mm Luger 115 grains Blazer FMJ 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC
Penetration:1-7/16"

9mm Luger 124 grains Winchester FMJ Target single packed 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC
Penetration:1-1/4"
Notes:Dirty

9mm Luger 115 grains Winchester FMJ Target bulk packed 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC
Penetration:1-3/8"
Notes:Dirty

9mm Luger 115 grains Remington R-P FMJ 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC
Penetration:2"
Penetration:2-1/8"
Penetration:2-1/16"
Notes: Tested 3X / slightly dirty

9mm Luger 115 grains Sig Sauer V-Crown JHP 1185 fps 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC
Penetration:2-1/8"

9mm Luger 100 grains Team Never Quit JAG Frangible 1300 fps grains 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC
Penetration:2-1/8



*9mm Luger +P 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC

9mm Luger +P 68 grains Underwood XT Defender Platinum coated solid copper 1800 fps 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC
Penetration:3-1/8"
Penetration:3-1/16"
Penetration:3-1/16"
Notes:Tested 3X



*9mm Luger +P+ 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC

9mm Luger +P+ 90 grains Underwood XT Defender solid copper 1550 fps 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC
Penetration:2-3/8"

9mm Luger +P+ 90 grains Underwood XT Defender Platinum coated solid copper 1550 fps 16.25" barrel S&W M&P FPC
Penetration:2-7/8"



*.45 Auto

.45 230 grains Federal FMJ 4.5" barrel FN FNP-45
Penetration:1"

.45 118 grains Ruger ARX copper/ polymer blend composite bullets 1307fps 4.5" barrel FN FNP-45
Penetration:1-1/2"



*5.7x28mm 18" barrel FN PS90

5.7x28mm 40 grains Federal American Eagle FMJ 18" barrel FN PS90
Penetration:2-3/4" - redo, bullet exited the side of the box

5.7x28mm 40 grains FN Hornady V-Max 18" barrel FN PS90
Penetration:1-7/8"


Future test...ran out of Uline catalogs.

*.5.56mm NATO

..5.56mm NATO FMJ 18" barrel AR-15

..5.56mm NATO Green Tip M855 18" barrel AR-15

.5.56mm NATO pistol tests



...well good luck out there!


View attachment 52811


PS...I hope Springfield is working on the .380 Bobcat...a smaller clone of the Hellcat.
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Don't know where you got your list from but it included a few junk rounds that few people carry but it left out the .40 S&W that is still quite popular.
 
Faulkner said:
Don't know where you got your list from but it included a few junk rounds that few people carry but it left out the .40 S&W that is still quite popular.
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Mmmmmmm really ? perhaps going back to the bat cave to peruse the article’s stated purpose will bring … enlightenment. Without moon clips, 40 S&W isn’t a revolver round, I’m almost positive - that’s just fer starters.. just saying ..
 
Lexie__M said:
I'm just a ole fashioned cowgirl, I much prefer placement 1st over anything else❗

To stop them hit the heart and if a vest on, right between the eyes ❗

If I miss the sweet spot, that is why I carry a 10mm❗
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Just a caveat, even as 100% effective as a brain stem hit is getting it between the eyes isnt easy. Most move after getting hit if not a hit that drops then with a handgun.

And 10mm or not again with handgun rounds an ineffective hit is an ineffective hit. 10mm or any other caliber isn’t going to magically make up for it

Even the 90 some percentage is one shot stop was revised that several were not even hit and the blast was a phycological stop because your throwing a flash bang at then when shot from a revolver.
 
old but still kicking said:
Mmmmmmm really ? perhaps going back to the bat cave to peruse the article’s stated purpose will bring … enlightenment. Without moon clips, 40 S&W isn’t a revolver round, I’m almost positive - that’s just fer starters.. just saying ..
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I wasn't referring to the article, oh enlightened one. According to the Bat computer, neither is the .380 ACP (you know Automatic Colt Pistol), 9mm, or .45 ACP (again, that pesky Automatic Colt Pistol designation) are rounds revolver rounds either, yet they are listed. Just saying.
 
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Faulkner said:
I wasn't referring to the article, oh enlightened one. According to the Bat computer, neither is the .380 ACP (you know Automatic Colt Pistol), 9mm, or .45 ACP (again, that pesky Automatic Colt Pistol designation) are rounds revolver rounds either, yet they are listed. Just saying.
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Ah, my fault - I misunderstood in that I assumed u were referencing the article & the tables - & yup u said correctly those other 3 calibers not made for wheelguns - without moon clips, half or full. Sorry to drag ya down the ‘assume’ road, man.
 
I have made the switch to Lehigh Defense Extreme Defender bullets. In my tests, they are far superior to Hollow points.
 
Mr.W. said:
Hmm, interesting..40 S&W may still be popular in the Ozarks, but it certainly isn't where I'm sitting.
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Well, I can still buy .40 S&W at Walmart, not so with other listed rounds like .32 S&W Remington, .32 H&R Magnum, .327 Federal Magnum, or even .380 for that matter. In fact, according to the production data I was able to glean Remington still manufactures more .40 S&W ammo than all these others combined.
 
Faulkner said:
Well, I can still buy .40 S&W at Walmart, not so with other listed rounds like .32 S&W Remington, .32 H&R Magnum, .327 Federal Magnum, or even .380 for that matter. In fact, according to the production data I was able to glean Remington still manufactures more .40 S&W ammo than all these others combined.
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Congratulations.
 
HansGruber said:
So—gel?

Pellet calibrated?
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Yes but do you really believe everything you read on the web?😁
I have also done car door and windshield tests from multiple angles measuring deflection. I'm not a lazy ass that relies on the internet for all of my info.
 
Jester560 said:
Yes but do you really believe everything you read on the web?😁
I have also done car door and windshield tests from multiple angles measuring deflection. I'm not a lazy ass that relies on the internet for all of my info.
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Me either. I hit a treated 4x4 with 6 rounds of 230gr. HST and cut it right in half. So I figured the FBI test must be right.


By the way, the FBI did isn’t at the mercy of some dipshite pencil pusher when it comes to ammo. They run their tests and use what works best. All the other agencies generally follow.

Everything ain’t for everybody brother that’s for sure. I’ll stick with HST.
 
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