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shot placement.

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Bloodknight

Master Class
Founding Member
We all practice shooting at targets head on, but in reality. Targets are usually on the move, forgive me if I don't use proper terms. If a target (person) is going left or right and it's a side shot. What is the percent of the vital area available to hit. If head on is 100%.If I'm not making myself clear I'm sorry :(.I know the area available is less, but are there statistics?
 
Bloodknight said:
We all practice shooting at targets head on, but in reality. Targets are usually on the move, forgive me if I don't use proper terms. If a target (person) is going left or right and it's a side shot. What is the percent of the vital area available to hit. If head on is 100%.If I'm not making myself clear I'm sorry :(.I know the area available is less, but are there statistics?
Click to expand...
I couldn't tell you the percent, but it is definitely much smaller.
 
That is one of the reasons the FBI standard is that 12-18” because in the Miami shooting the round they blamed was a cross torso hit.

I don’t know the percentage but head on the heart and aorta is about a 3x5” card area inside a large grapefruit size circle. Turn sideways it will be slightly smaller the issue is the secondary target goes to almost zero. Front on you have that 3x5 and think of that inside about a 8 1/3x 11” (printer paper) is a good secondary and better than nothing. Anything outside not so much.

If you want to really improve your ability go to a HITs class by Hardwired Tactical (Daryle Bolke and Wayne Dobbs) Cognitive Pistol with Tactical Anatomy with Two Pillars Training (John Hearn)
Of any classes by Lee Weems at First Person Safety

You can always practice with the Bakersfield Qualification as that is an excellent report card in your abilities!
 
i cannot say either the percentages, but one thing i do know is, DO NOT shoot that thug in the back!

i feel/think as long as a hit is in the toros area, the thug is going down. just don't stand above him, and fill him full of lead....once down, just cover him, till the cops arrive.

these are things i have been told in class.

of course, now the debate carries on...........
 
Old_Me said:
i cannot say either the percentages, but one thing i do know is, DO NOT shoot that thug in the back!

i feel/think as long as a hit is in the toros area, the thug is going down. just don't stand above him, and fill him full of lead....once down, just cover him, till the cops arrive.

these are things i have been told in class.

of course, now the debate carries on...........
Click to expand...
You can be justified in shooting one in the back where it gets dicy is if all the rounds are in the back or more than one or two hits are there means you kept firing after you assessed the BG was fleeing that whole OODA loop and one or two others variables.

Now if it’s an active shooter scenario where they are obviously a ranger outside a Soros appointed DA you’re good with whatever.
 
ECS686 said:
You can be justified in shooting one in the back where it gets dicy is if all the rounds are in the back or more than one or two hits are there means you kept firing after you assessed the BG was fleeing that whole OODA loop and one or two others variables.

Now if it’s an active shooter scenario where they are obviously a ranger outside a Soros appointed DA you’re good with whatever.
Click to expand...
well, i dunno...you are not a lawyer........

neither am i.

to get my ccw, i took a quick self defense law class regarding shooting a thug.

shooting in the back, is pretty much forbiden.

so please excuse and forgive me, if i don't follow your thoughts on shooting someone in the back.
 
Bloodknight said:
We all practice shooting at targets head on, but in reality. Targets are usually on the move, forgive me if I don't use proper terms. If a target (person) is going left or right and it's a side shot. What is the percent of the vital area available to hit. If head on is 100%.If I'm not making myself clear I'm sorry :(.I know the area available is less, but are there statistics?
Click to expand...
You have a good point about ‘targets’ being on the move. Also in that the target area shrinks with the side view. I’d hazard a guess that the vital area (?) shrinks to less than one-third what it was.

Side note:
If you’re talking about a bona-fide threat, however, i bet it’s much more likely to be facing you (in profile and in movement) anyway.
 
Old_Me said:
well, i dunno...you are not a lawyer........

neither am i.

to get my ccw, i took a quick self defense law class regarding shooting a thug.

shooting in the back, is pretty much forbiden.

so please excuse and forgive me, if i don't follow your thoughts on shooting someone in the back.
Click to expand...
Respectfully a CCW instructor giving legal advice is rinse and repeat.

I wont say I know everything but here’s where I base my experience on. I taught Use of Force (and agency firearms instructor and UOF classes at FLETC (I’m retired now ) Currently a Indiana LE Academy Firearms Instructor Range Master Oh and I’ve testified under federal inquiry and court for Use of Force issues with agency involved shootings and more than a couple have involved Miranda rights read.

I’ve probably lived through a little more case law than what your CCW instructor that did a 2 day NRA class probably read and repeated to you.

Saying a blanket statement like “you can’t shoot someone in the back” is like that question that guy in class asks “when can I use deadly force on someone “ well it depends!
 
ECS686 said:
Respectfully a CCW instructor giving legal advice is rinse and repeat.

I wont say I know everything but here’s where I base my experience on. I taught Use of Force (and agency firearms instructor and UOF classes at FLETC (I’m retired now ) Currently a Indiana LE Academy Firearms Instructor Range Master Oh and I’ve testified under federal inquiry and court for Use of Force issues with agency involved shootings and more than a couple have involved Miranda rights read.

I’ve probably lived through a little more case law than what your CCW instructor that did a 2 day NRA class probably read and repeated to you.

Saying a blanket statement like “you can’t shoot someone in the back” is like that question that guy in class asks “when can I use deadly force on someone “ well it depends!
Click to expand...
no, it wasn't a ccw instructor, it WAS a lawyer, it was part of the whole ccw class.

further, regardless of your experience, you speak of the state of Indiana...and "agencies", i don't see where you say..."individuals involved in a shooting".....very important FACTS you left out.

LE is WAY different than the average person, or did you think we are all created equal..???

we have 50 US States, and the laws differ from one to another...for us mere mortals of non-LEO life......
 
How about this lil girl Mia?
She started shooting pistols when she was 8.
See how well this small frame girl handles all types of firearm in tactical training.
Yes training is everything, just watch her videos.
While she prefers the 9mm she has video of her with 10mm. so much for girls with limp wrist.

www.nrafamily.org

NRA Family | Rising Shooting Stars: Tactical Mia

On the range, she's the exception to the exception ... and we think she'll prove to rule.
www.nrafamily.org www.nrafamily.org
 
Old_Me said:
no, it wasn't a ccw instructor, it WAS a lawyer, it was part of the whole ccw class.

further, regardless of your experience, you speak of the state of Indiana...and "agencies", i don't see where you say..."individuals involved in a shooting".....very important FACTS you left out.

LE is WAY different than the average person, or did you think we are all created equal..???

we have 50 US States, and the laws differ from one to another...for us mere mortals of non-LEO life.....
Click to expand...

First let me mention I am no way advocating a shot in the back is always justified. There is a window of time where you could be justified and or you could explain a couple hits .

Some Lawyers only tell you what’s easier for them to defend and not much else. A true gun guys that is an attorney is rare let alone know much about a force continuum. Look at Guy Reliford for good example of a true firearms knowledgeable attorney.

On what I have witnessed I was speaking of the Federal side and have seen case law in about 10 states with civilian shootings (I’ve not just been in court on agency shootings)

I have also seen a case of a homeowner shooting a burglar that rushed past him knocking him down. BG was fleeing out the door (of a detached garage not part of the house) the home owner shot from the hip at the blue running away hitting him in the back of the head with a 30-30. Obviously he was Dead on scene. Prosecutor didn’t charge saying the homeowner had a right to be there and a slight force disparity he didn’t feel it warranted. Same scenario in another part of the county (remember Rittenhouse) you’re on the stand.


And if you think all LEO’s get a do anything ticket research LAPD Officer Toni McBrides shooting

ktla.com

LAPD officer broke policy with final two shots that killed 38-year-old, Police Commission rules

The Los Angeles Police Commission ruled Tuesday that LAPD Officer Toni McBride broke department policy when she continued shooting Daniel Hernandez during a fatal encounter in April — deciding McBr…
ktla.com ktla.com

a lot of times LEOs have more scrutiny than Joe/Jane CCW


As far as all created equal well yeah we all pretty much are unless you are wanting to throw out the Qualified Immunity thing which does not protect officers when they do illegal acts or commit crimes.

Back in topic there can be times it’s justified and sometimes not like everything to make a blanket statement with no articulation shows inexperience, ignorance naiveness of all 3!
 
ECS686 said:
That is one of the reasons the FBI standard is that 12-18” because in the Miami shooting the round they blamed was a cross torso hit.

I don’t know the percentage but head on the heart and aorta is about a 3x5” card area inside a large grapefruit size circle. Turn sideways it will be slightly smaller the issue is the secondary target goes to almost zero. Front on you have that 3x5 and think of that inside about a 8 1/3x 11” (printer paper) is a good secondary and better than nothing. Anything outside not so much.

If you want to really improve your ability go to a HITs class by Hardwired Tactical (Daryle Bolke and Wayne Dobbs) Cognitive Pistol with Tactical Anatomy with Two Pillars Training (John Hearn)
Of any classes by Lee Weems at First Person Safety

You can always practice with the Bakersfield Qualification as that is an excellent report card in your abilities!
Click to expand...
I looked up the Qual test and might add this to a range day with the group in the near future.
 
Some stages in IDPA/IPSC shooting has the shooter move while shooting to somewhat simulate a moving target, as well as shooting on the move.

The A/B/C zones simulate the vital zones.
 
southtex said:
I looked up the Qual test and might add this to a range day with the group in the near future.
Click to expand...
For those that don’t know, The average hit % of LEO’s nationwide is between 20-30% Barkersfield and Kern County Cali hit % is 85% and it’s traced to they shoot the Bakersfield drill every couple weeks on demand and have to do 80 points or better. I believe it is the brain child of Larry Mudgett and a Mike I forget the last name a legend of LAPD SWAT if I remember right.

The great thing is it’s only 10 rounds
I shot it in some Lee Weems classes and it’s a good scale to gauge one’s true ability.

IDPA Target with 10/8/6 -10 scoring (John Hearne has a smaller target that the actually use if you really want to test your skill but IDPA target is just fine)

From the holster

stage 1 10 feet 2 rounds in 1 1/2 seconds

Stage 2 20 feet 2 rounds from Holster 2 seconds

Stage 3 30 feet 2 rounds slide lock reload and 2 more (4 rounds total) 6 seconds

Stage 4 60 feet 2 rounds from holster 3.5 seconds

Now the dicy part for every .25 seconds over deduct 1 point so .24 over -1 .26 -2 if you are .99 over it’s -4 you need 80 to pass 100 possible

 
ECS686 said:
For those that don’t know, The average hit % of LEO’s nationwide is between 20-30% Barkersfield and Kern County Cali hit % is 85% and it’s traced to they shoot the Bakersfield drill every couple weeks on demand and have to do 80 points or better. I believe it is the brain child of Larry Mudgett and a Mike I forget the last name a legend of LAPD SWAT if I remember right.

The great thing is it’s only 10 rounds
I shot it in some Lee Weems classes and it’s a good scale to gauge one’s true ability.

IDPA Target with 10/8/6 -10 scoring (John Hearne has a smaller target that the actually use if you really want to test your skill but IDPA target is just fine)

From the holster

stage 1 10 feet 2 rounds in 1 1/2 seconds

Stage 2 20 feet 2 rounds from Holster 2 seconds

Stage 3 30 feet 2 rounds slide lock reload and 2 more (4 rounds total) 6 seconds

Stage 4 60 feet 2 rounds from holster 3.5 seconds

Now the dicy part for every .25 seconds over deduct 1 point so .24 over -1 .26 -2 if you are .99 over it’s -4 you need 80 to pass 100 possible

Click to expand...

again, you are "assuming" everywhere shooting for the holster is allowed.....it is not, at all 3 ranges i go to.

again, you are pretty much giving us LE information, over private citizens.

it just does not work that way.

as far as "justifiable" (at times) shooting in the back?

i'll try to remember to not do that here. if not only due to being told in Law class NOT to, but it'll carry over in civil court as well.

perhaps a "disclaimer" on your part like, "where this is allowed"...????

rather than to assume it IS allowed all over the place..???
 
Old_Me said:
i cannot say either the percentages, but one thing i do know is, DO NOT shoot that thug in the back!

i feel/think as long as a hit is in the toros area, the thug is going down. just don't stand above him, and fill him full of lead....once down, just cover him, till the cops arrive.

these are things i have been told in class.

of course, now the debate carries on...........
Click to expand...
I agree 100% with your statements.
 
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