rcurtner
Professional
Agree, very much.
Ayoob: Is .45 Still Better Than 9mm?
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
Old Airborne Dog
Alpha
I don't know how you could explain "extensive police experience" equating to being a reserve officer in a town of 400 people.
Lots of people with access to police reports also write - minus any actual personal experience with fangs out confrontations with violent murderous criminals. Gun magazines are full of them. Doesn't mean they're wrong, doesn't mean much of what they write is quite possibly accurate.
Ayoob has long written as though his law enforcement experience was right there beside Jim Cirillo on that stakeout squad involved in all those shootings. Good marketing for the Ayoob product to do that!
If you trust his perspective, I have 48 rounds of Glaser Safety Slugs for sale - Ayoob assured readers they were Certain Death on bad guys. Actual One Shot Stops!!!!
If you trust his perspective so much, I can give you a great price on them to use as your carry ammunition.
Model 457
Master Class
I own both. But I carry the .45 loaded with Federal 230 grain Hydra-Shok. Years ago I read a publication from the FBI drawing comparisons and contrast between the 9 and .45. I've since looked for it many times but haven't been able to lay my hands on it. It was a study based upon the psychological result of being shot. It was suggested that being hit hard versus a super sonic round sizzling through you induced the onset of shock quicker purely from the mental impact regardless of actual physical damage. As many have stated, this debate has been beat to death. I carry the .45 simply because that is what I have always carried. I'm more than certain I could defend myself quite effectively with a 9. But as Confucius says, "Old habits die hard. Especially in an old man!" Just my ¢.42. The ¢.42 came from all of the ¢.02 I've been collecting from Talyn's posts! 
I resemble that remark, then ending with 12+1 in .45 acp, with 24 more on the belt with a M-4 with 30 and 30 more in a dual mag set-up. Sad as I remember speed-loaders were a thing and secure holsters made their debut... Oh and let's forget the blackjack and alone with nearest back-up 30 minutes away with no portable radio, I was crazy!
Old Airborne, respectfully. The town size equating to crime can be misleading.
That said I’ll repeat what Ayoob wrote at the time was believed by a lot of folks to be effective. The testing protocols are better now then in the 70’s and we are better at bullets now
The article uiu keep blasting Ayoob on was how many years ago? Your starting to sound like “that one time at band camp”
Let ir go I don’t the few rounds hih bought bankrupted you.
It could be worse you could have a bunch of Sig 320’s and not know where that stuff is gonna go!
I remember picking up a 320 up and stating damn the trigger is nice, now I know why... Only Sig I owned was a 220 in .45 back in the day and do regret selling it back in 96... Had a 007 serial number and really regret, as I just didn't warm up to it... No Sigs in the Box.
Winchester67
Custom
Remember that Safety Slugs he was talking up were during the dark ages of ammo. They were probably more relevant then as opposed to now. Having said that, I have Glaser Safety Slugs in my .25 acp Colt Vest Pocket model. Every little bit helps when you are talking .25 acp.
I bought an Sig 220 45 in 1994 as a duty gun. My department didn’t want me to carry my 1911. I carried that when I worked for the US Marshal Service doing contract stuff and ran a 228 with DOJ for about 13 years. I have a personal Sig 226 Legion 9mm that is carry sometimes and really like.
I also let my 220 go and would love to grab another one. Hope Sig survives just to keep the 22X series
But if not I have gravitated to HO with LEM my new favorite
Oldmountaiman
Master Class
I'm just old fashioned and use the original,a 200gr bullet no +p saves wear and tear on my old overused hands and it gets it done
Old Airborne Dog
Alpha
Equally respectfully, context and nuance matter in the real world, not insinuations. You may have missed where I pointed out that the town where Ayoob accumulated all his hands on policing experience is a very small town whose reported crime index is 23x LOWER than the national average.
Misleading would be if I were to suggest it was quite possibly a hotbed of crime, when in fact it appears to be a real live version of Mayberry RFD.
Well, the easy response to that is that you and a few others are starting to sound desperate to present Ayoob as a police officer with the same real world street gunfighting experience as professional police turned gun writers like Bill Jordan and Jim Cirillo.
We could let all of that go and ask what is contributed by becoming one more of the long list of gun writers that cashed in on cleverly reopening the 9mm vs 45 ACP debate.
.
What did we learn here from Ayoob getting a paycheck to tell us about shooting bowling pins with these two calibers, measuring split times while doing so?
We're all here voluntarily; SA doesn't charge us a dime for reading their content that in turn helps them market their products. But are you better informed now than before you read this article?
And would the posts here be exactly the same if we were commenting on Ayoob presenting for another gun company, Wilson Combat, an instructing all single stack .45 ACP owners that they're making a mistake = high capacity handguns are more important today than ever before.
Part of successful marketing is making the right pitch to the right audience. In that video, helping to market one of Wilson Combat's high capacity 9mm pistols, the messaging is that with today's threats and circumstances, a single stack pistol of any caliber including .45 ACP results in being poorly armed to protect yourself.
So do you prefer the .45 ACP sales pitch of Ayoob or the high capacity double stack 9mm sales pitch of Ayoob?
i am not an Ayoob biographer however I have read many many articles of his. I have not trained with him personally however I am friends (as in we call each other and visit at places like the NRAAM Revolverfest and teainjng venues) with many that have trained with and are friends with him. Chuck Haggard, John Hearne, Darryl Bolke Bryan Eastridge Tom Givens I could go on but you get my reference.
it’s obviously you have a distaste for Ayoob for your reasons listed. You point out basically calling him a snake oil salesman. You have mentioned issues with his LE career as where he worked..
The fact of the matter is Ayoob has had a very successful business in the training world, is a recognized expert witness in courts across the country. Has contributed to the Force Science institute and many more things.
Ayoob has his hand very much in the pulse of the firearms industry whether it’s equipment or ammunitions uiu name it.
There are a few gun writers I don’t necessarily like their style or maybe outright agree with from my own experience in Military and LE (Municipal and Federal) since 1986.
However I have less issues with the ones I might not agree with than I do the literal army of Kroger meat cutters and plumbers trying to teach tactics from church security to anti robbery techniques and military spec ops cosplay with their plate carriers.
Like Ayoob at least they wore a uniform and have testified in court and even in a town of 400 probably mirandized a few people.
A lot of folks have been (I will go on a limb and say everyone here has at some point) been a mouth lice for something we thought was accurate and then we find out there’s better ways of doing it OR long term data proves otherwise.
As far as 45 bs 9 we have all made those arguments and it doesn’t matter. You can scenerio justify your case. In reality it’s been the case more often than not most fights are over in 3-6 rounds. Of course thwre are outliers everyone wants to point out.
As Pat Rogers (RIP) said “mission drives the gear”
Your an active patrol cop yeah probably a 9mm with 17 round mags, your retired going to Walmart a M&P Shield 45 or Snub 32 Mag probably gonna do just fine but you do you!
Trends change in everything Cars, (women to some) homes you want to live in and definitely firearms and ammo.
And what is old sometimes is new again. When I was in the Military i was a reserve outside Memphis (I suppose that doesn’t count even though I went to 2 shootings and a stabbing my first shift) several detectives carried full wadcutters (factory not that hand loaded backwards BS) in theor snubs. 2 that I knew dumped felons with theirs, several more Memphis OD guys dumped felons there with theirs same set up. The with the auto loader craze that went away and now is coming back full circle.
Everyone of us that are involved with firearms as a pastime has chased gear at different stages of our lives to different degrees. Some o know probably won’t ever stop. Others get to a certain point we know a couple three options that work for us and our situation and roll with it.
So if you disdain Ayoob that’s you but I am not holding anything against him he said or wrote decades ago when in your specific flasher ammo example 1 there were crude testing methods back then, 2 nobody really had the information on terminal ballistics we have learned the last 25 -30 years
I mean how many writers (scores more than Ayoob) swore by 45 ACP Hardball but changed their mind and or we learned 230 JHP was better then 230 Hydra Shok was better yet then 230 HST Gold Dot or 220 Critical Duty plus P was tops in-that caliber
Then the whole back 9mm switch. Same rounds thwre are marked improvements and writers went back and forth because things changed.
so for that I don’t have any issue with Ayoob and enjoy reading his articles.
Respectfully ECS686
Belt Fed
Ronin
Why all the fuss over this guy? he puts his pants on the same way all of us do. most gun reviewers are drivin by money and will say anything their sponsors want them to say. I can still remember the clown i watched on the Sig P322.
I had just bought one and it was a horrible gun many light strikes and jams and i mean many. i was looking for a fix when i found this bozo. he was having the same problems as me and it would screw up 6 to 7 times every mag, just like mine. he was making all kinds of excuses and at the end of it he highly recommended it had praised it to high heaven.
Right then i knew you really can't trust any of these clowns. i already knew it but he just reinforced it. they will say anything for money. and if i do watch one it will be the ones that buy their own stuff, not the bigger guys that have everything givin to them.
I had just bought one and it was a horrible gun many light strikes and jams and i mean many. i was looking for a fix when i found this bozo. he was having the same problems as me and it would screw up 6 to 7 times every mag, just like mine. he was making all kinds of excuses and at the end of it he highly recommended it had praised it to high heaven.
Right then i knew you really can't trust any of these clowns. i already knew it but he just reinforced it. they will say anything for money. and if i do watch one it will be the ones that buy their own stuff, not the bigger guys that have everything givin to them.
Lab4Us
Custom
I would argue it’s the PRICE of 9mm over .45 that makes it so popular (9mm). As for capacity, the more I read these threads (across many forums), I truly wonder if anyone practices magazine reloads anymore. After all, my Emissary .45 gives me 8+1 (+8 spare magazine, which everyone should carry in the event of a magazine fail), and that’s just with the two magazines that came with the gun…so 17 .45 rounds.If it wasn’t for capacity and (maybe) availability, I wonder if 9 would be as popular as it is?
(That’s not to say the 45 would be any MORE popular).
It’s great to carry one 9mm magazine in your gun with 15-21 rounds (or more), until that magazine fails and you don’t have a loaded spare…
TidalWave
Professional
Well, I see your point Lab.
But then again, would the price of 9 be all that low if it wasn’t so popular? ( Leaving out for the moment LE and Mil consumption).
A lot of places aren’t driven on spending countless reps in mag reloads just because during admin loading etc uiu should have it down. We don’t practice changing tires but all know how to do it (if we don’t call AAA to do it) and yea nobody is getting shot at changing the tire that’s not the point so work with me.
Just like the 1911 gets heat for being “unreliable” the magazine failure in a fight is not what fails people it’s usually whem the draw in a surprise startled way not getting a great grip on theor Glock M&P name your striker wonder 9. Not magazine failure body cam video shows this. Officers with guns in their hand already have much Les’s stoppages.
Fact of the matter if your firearm is treated better than your lawn mower wether 1911 Flock or Wheelgun hih will probably get through all the rounds in your mag in gun and if your the 2nd non LE to have an emergency reload the other spares. As mentioned most folks run out of time before ammo excluding those outliers like your on duty with Bank of America or someone will come in the video of “why one cop Carrie’s 145 rounds” yawn
(I’ll add where a striker 9mm shines like Glock you can run a 1,200 round 2 day class with no worries where a 1911 and wheelgun especially if running lead you might want to wipe down every 300 rounds (or less on a wheelgun cylinder) so there is that)
9mm is a great round and the less coasts allow agencies to train more however that unfortunately not the case with most it’s a one and done.
Frankly when I read those stories of cops firing a ton of rounds and getting no hits I cringe. I sincerely believe a shooter armed with a 19 Smith and 6 rounds of .357 or a 1911.45 to be a lot more effective than a non shooter dropping 20+ rounds from his. I really think marksmanship should be Required. If they can’t shoot Expert they should not be able get out of the academy -period. Their lives, and the lives of those they are supposed to protect depend. In the final analysis, on their ability to accurately place a shot. Political correctness in hiring has NO place in LEO-skills are the only thing that should count/
I had this same discussion with John Hearne a few months ago and I have mentioned it here . We both agreed on body cam LE shootings if it goes past 4-7 rounds from the Officer it’s a mag dump or close to it and about everything else is hit except the suspect. Part of that shoot til the threat goes away. Which suppressive fire was suppose to be a military battlefield thing
That is my frustration as a LE trainer. I started out in the revolver days where it was driven into your head you have to get it done in 6 or 8 or you are gonna die. The emergency reload wasn’t with speedloaders outside a PPC match or qualifications but a NY reload with a snub IWB behind the speedloader pouch .
Then at some point after the Miami FBI incident agencies as a whole got away from deliberate shots to “shoot til the threat goes away” and “shoot them into the ground”
And many many cops worry about jail bait aolutbtimes of .16 because well I have all these rounds instead of a .50 (that LAOD SWAT and LAPD Metro aka the gunfighters so and they dunp a lot of demons and at that speed it’s fast enough and allows them to not only make good vital hits but assess if the additional shots are well you know constitutionally warranted as Darryl Bolke says
Factor in a ton of agencies still train on huge B27 with a non anatomical correct X ring that conditions folks to aim at non vital areas for score.
I could go on and on but that’s more of a teainjng discussion tjan caliber debate.
So the fact that agencies have failed their officers or they have bought in to this Vet Bro trainer BS mentalities and push such utter bad principles into academy’s is almost criminal.
Hard to beat Jordan’s book, “No Second Place Winner “.