rcurtner
Professional
Agree, very much.
Ayoob: Is .45 Still Better Than 9mm?
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
Old Airborne Dog
Alpha
I don't know how you could explain "extensive police experience" equating to being a reserve officer in a town of 400 people.
Lots of people with access to police reports also write - minus any actual personal experience with fangs out confrontations with violent murderous criminals. Gun magazines are full of them. Doesn't mean they're wrong, doesn't mean much of what they write is quite possibly accurate.
Ayoob has long written as though his law enforcement experience was right there beside Jim Cirillo on that stakeout squad involved in all those shootings. Good marketing for the Ayoob product to do that!
If you trust his perspective, I have 48 rounds of Glaser Safety Slugs for sale - Ayoob assured readers they were Certain Death on bad guys. Actual One Shot Stops!!!!
If you trust his perspective so much, I can give you a great price on them to use as your carry ammunition.
Model 457
Master Class
I own both. But I carry the .45 loaded with Federal 230 grain Hydra-Shok. Years ago I read a publication from the FBI drawing comparisons and contrast between the 9 and .45. I've since looked for it many times but haven't been able to lay my hands on it. It was a study based upon the psychological result of being shot. It was suggested that being hit hard versus a super sonic round sizzling through you induced the onset of shock quicker purely from the mental impact regardless of actual physical damage. As many have stated, this debate has been beat to death. I carry the .45 simply because that is what I have always carried. I'm more than certain I could defend myself quite effectively with a 9. But as Confucius says, "Old habits die hard. Especially in an old man!" Just my ¢.42. The ¢.42 came from all of the ¢.02 I've been collecting from Talyn's posts! 
I resemble that remark, then ending with 12+1 in .45 acp, with 24 more on the belt with a M-4 with 30 and 30 more in a dual mag set-up. Sad as I remember speed-loaders were a thing and secure holsters made their debut... Oh and let's forget the blackjack and alone with nearest back-up 30 minutes away with no portable radio, I was crazy!
Old Airborne, respectfully. The town size equating to crime can be misleading.
That said I’ll repeat what Ayoob wrote at the time was believed by a lot of folks to be effective. The testing protocols are better now then in the 70’s and we are better at bullets now
The article uiu keep blasting Ayoob on was how many years ago? Your starting to sound like “that one time at band camp”
Let ir go I don’t the few rounds hih bought bankrupted you.
It could be worse you could have a bunch of Sig 320’s and not know where that stuff is gonna go!
I remember picking up a 320 up and stating damn the trigger is nice, now I know why... Only Sig I owned was a 220 in .45 back in the day and do regret selling it back in 96... Had a 007 serial number and really regret, as I just didn't warm up to it... No Sigs in the Box.
Winchester67
Custom
Remember that Safety Slugs he was talking up were during the dark ages of ammo. They were probably more relevant then as opposed to now. Having said that, I have Glaser Safety Slugs in my .25 acp Colt Vest Pocket model. Every little bit helps when you are talking .25 acp.
I bought an Sig 220 45 in 1994 as a duty gun. My department didn’t want me to carry my 1911. I carried that when I worked for the US Marshal Service doing contract stuff and ran a 228 with DOJ for about 13 years. I have a personal Sig 226 Legion 9mm that is carry sometimes and really like.
I also let my 220 go and would love to grab another one. Hope Sig survives just to keep the 22X series
But if not I have gravitated to HO with LEM my new favorite
Oldmountaiman
Master Class
I'm just old fashioned and use the original,a 200gr bullet no +p saves wear and tear on my old overused hands and it gets it done
Old Airborne Dog
Alpha
Equally respectfully, context and nuance matter in the real world, not insinuations. You may have missed where I pointed out that the town where Ayoob accumulated all his hands on policing experience is a very small town whose reported crime index is 23x LOWER than the national average.
Misleading would be if I were to suggest it was quite possibly a hotbed of crime, when in fact it appears to be a real live version of Mayberry RFD.
Well, the easy response to that is that you and a few others are starting to sound desperate to present Ayoob as a police officer with the same real world street gunfighting experience as professional police turned gun writers like Bill Jordan and Jim Cirillo.
We could let all of that go and ask what is contributed by becoming one more of the long list of gun writers that cashed in on cleverly reopening the 9mm vs 45 ACP debate.
.
What did we learn here from Ayoob getting a paycheck to tell us about shooting bowling pins with these two calibers, measuring split times while doing so?
We're all here voluntarily; SA doesn't charge us a dime for reading their content that in turn helps them market their products. But are you better informed now than before you read this article?
And would the posts here be exactly the same if we were commenting on Ayoob presenting for another gun company, Wilson Combat, an instructing all single stack .45 ACP owners that they're making a mistake = high capacity handguns are more important today than ever before.
Part of successful marketing is making the right pitch to the right audience. In that video, helping to market one of Wilson Combat's high capacity 9mm pistols, the messaging is that with today's threats and circumstances, a single stack pistol of any caliber including .45 ACP results in being poorly armed to protect yourself.
So do you prefer the .45 ACP sales pitch of Ayoob or the high capacity double stack 9mm sales pitch of Ayoob?
i am not an Ayoob biographer however I have read many many articles of his. I have not trained with him personally however I am friends (as in we call each other and visit at places like the NRAAM Revolverfest and teainjng venues) with many that have trained with and are friends with him. Chuck Haggard, John Hearne, Darryl Bolke Bryan Eastridge Tom Givens I could go on but you get my reference.
it’s obviously you have a distaste for Ayoob for your reasons listed. You point out basically calling him a snake oil salesman. You have mentioned issues with his LE career as where he worked..
The fact of the matter is Ayoob has had a very successful business in the training world, is a recognized expert witness in courts across the country. Has contributed to the Force Science institute and many more things.
Ayoob has his hand very much in the pulse of the firearms industry whether it’s equipment or ammunitions uiu name it.
There are a few gun writers I don’t necessarily like their style or maybe outright agree with from my own experience in Military and LE (Municipal and Federal) since 1986.
However I have less issues with the ones I might not agree with than I do the literal army of Kroger meat cutters and plumbers trying to teach tactics from church security to anti robbery techniques and military spec ops cosplay with their plate carriers.
Like Ayoob at least they wore a uniform and have testified in court and even in a town of 400 probably mirandized a few people.
A lot of folks have been (I will go on a limb and say everyone here has at some point) been a mouth lice for something we thought was accurate and then we find out there’s better ways of doing it OR long term data proves otherwise.
As far as 45 bs 9 we have all made those arguments and it doesn’t matter. You can scenerio justify your case. In reality it’s been the case more often than not most fights are over in 3-6 rounds. Of course thwre are outliers everyone wants to point out.
As Pat Rogers (RIP) said “mission drives the gear”
Your an active patrol cop yeah probably a 9mm with 17 round mags, your retired going to Walmart a M&P Shield 45 or Snub 32 Mag probably gonna do just fine but you do you!
Trends change in everything Cars, (women to some) homes you want to live in and definitely firearms and ammo.
And what is old sometimes is new again. When I was in the Military i was a reserve outside Memphis (I suppose that doesn’t count even though I went to 2 shootings and a stabbing my first shift) several detectives carried full wadcutters (factory not that hand loaded backwards BS) in theor snubs. 2 that I knew dumped felons with theirs, several more Memphis OD guys dumped felons there with theirs same set up. The with the auto loader craze that went away and now is coming back full circle.
Everyone of us that are involved with firearms as a pastime has chased gear at different stages of our lives to different degrees. Some o know probably won’t ever stop. Others get to a certain point we know a couple three options that work for us and our situation and roll with it.
So if you disdain Ayoob that’s you but I am not holding anything against him he said or wrote decades ago when in your specific flasher ammo example 1 there were crude testing methods back then, 2 nobody really had the information on terminal ballistics we have learned the last 25 -30 years
I mean how many writers (scores more than Ayoob) swore by 45 ACP Hardball but changed their mind and or we learned 230 JHP was better then 230 Hydra Shok was better yet then 230 HST Gold Dot or 220 Critical Duty plus P was tops in-that caliber
Then the whole back 9mm switch. Same rounds thwre are marked improvements and writers went back and forth because things changed.
so for that I don’t have any issue with Ayoob and enjoy reading his articles.
Respectfully ECS686