Ayoob: Is .45 Still Better Than 9mm?
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
KillerFord1977
Emissary
You found a Hi Point !
But if I miss by an inch with a 9mm, it is a mile. But with the .45 (and if I use the HP), still a hit from close is good enough for grenades and flying ashtrays... Think it is that metric thing?
Okay Johnny, I will have to correct you as the Marine Recon continued using up what 1911 parts that were left, with upgrades until 2022, so 111 years in service. The Navy's Frogmen, well Hell, I have no idea what they are using now, but they were still using .45 for the same reason the Marines were. I carried a .45acp for a duty weapon in both the military and LE. Yes, you are right, with 15 years in homicide the caliber seemed to have direct correlation on who was interrogated and who remained silent... Before the 9mm fanboys say "but", there were more than one would think dying from the lowly .22. However, I don't use one for EDC, including that newfangled 5.7x28mm that I really like and was designed to replace the 9mm. I wonder why...
HansGruber
SAINT
A miss is a miss, regardless of caliber.
Putting rounds in squishy stuff (which is a hit, not a miss) tends to get stops—faster if you put more than one round in, regardless of caliber, which gives an edge to a lighter, lighter recoiling caliber, no?
I’ve argued both sides of this, and the crux comes down to your mental image of how a defensive shooting will go down…
If it’s against a ‘roided, methed up colossus, and you think you’ll only get one shot…a larger, heavier caliber makes sense for you.
If you think it’s going to be against multiple opponents, a smaller caliber with higher capacity makes sense for you.
There’s no right or wrong answer…but anyone who claims there is hasn’t looked into the issue enough.
HansGruber
SAINT
5.7?
Was developed to be a PDW round capable of penetrating light armor; mainly for support troops.
Armor piercing capability out of a pistol is spotty at best, particularly since true AP 5.7 rounds are only available to LE…and the few PD’s that have used it found the performance less than stellar.
Annihilator
Hellion
Agree, no bullet is magic, if you just get winged with a .45, 9mm and so on, you not going down immediately, as I have said many times, shot placement is what matters no matter the caliber being used, this should be in your training regiment instead of relying on how many rounds you carry, just my thoughts
A defensive situation is nowhere near the same as cutting scoring rings on a PPC B27.
I happened to have had conversation with Justin Dyal who was attending the snub revolver roundup and we stayed at the same hotel. Dyal was the commanding OIC of the MARSOC school house during the M45 fiasco.
The Colt M45 was a totally new production 1911 and the issue was with coatings in the internals and there was some discussions of mag capacity.
Both MARSOC and the SEALs have been running Glock 19’s for several years now.
While the 45 is a great round it does nothing a 9mm doesn’t these days a non stop with a 9mm a 45 in the same place will not show any difference. And knocking a bowling pin farther doesn’t equate to better terminal ballistics.
Hmm, I will have to ask the bowling pin, as I have seen what both can do to a human... The point was the 5.7x28mm is now what 9mm claimed to be to the .45acp. When I had to drop my .357 mag for the 9mm, I found the claims were not accurate except the mag capacity. I will concede ammo is better... My thoughts were .38 short and you will need the 15 in the mag. Within 60 days I traded the 9mm for the .45acp, 9 rounds over 6-38 specials of the wheel-gun (they took away my "Magnum" rounds, sounded scary eh).
Now 5.7 fanboys are making the same claims. I did acquire one, because of S&W (21 rounds) making it "gas operated" with the Tempo Barrel system, it is sweet. My thoughts of it replacing the Shield in 9mm or the .45 FNX (16 rounds) I carry on occasion, nope...
Reminds me of current situation with the military replacing the 5.56 with the 6.8x51 after they dumped the 7.62x51 of the M-14 for infantrymen for the smaller round and larger mag capacity of 5.56. But with 80,000 psi in the 6.8, lordy, but will they be able to carry the same loadout? No, it will be about half due to the size, as does that argument sound familiar. Based on the chances of having armored bad guy in the wild, slim but not zero. That is why one should practice the Mozambique...
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I was mandated a 45 in my retirement job until this year and am going to 9mm. An agency I worked for in the early 90’s allowed wverything 38 9 45 and I also saw a few shootings with each. One was center punched with Rem 230 JHP (this was before gold dot) and he was talking but winded whem I got there.Hmm, I will have to ask the bowling pin, as I have seen what both can do to a human... The point was the 5.7x28mm is now what 9mm claimed to be to the .45acp. When I had to drop my .357 mag for the 9mm, I found the claims were not accurate except the mag capacity. I will concede ammo is better... My thoughts were .38 short and you will need the 15 in the mag. Within 60 days I traded the 9mm for the .45acp, 9 rounds over 6-38 specials of the wheel-gun (they took away my "Magnum" rounds, sounded scary eh).
Now 5.7 fanboys are making the same claims. I did acquire one, because of S&W (21 rounds) making it "gas operated" with the Tempo Barrel system, it is sweet. My thoughts of it replacing the Shield in 9mm or the .45 FNX (16 rounds) I carry on occasion, nope...
Reminds me of current situation with the military replacing the 5.56 with the 6.8x51 after they dumped the 7.62x51 of the M-14 for infantrymen for the smaller round and larger mag capacity of 5.56. But with 80,000 psi in the 6.8, lordy, but will they be able to carry the same loadout? No, it will be about half due to the size, as does that argument sound familiar. Based on the chances of having armored bad guy in the wild, slim but not zero. That is why one should practice the Mozambique...
In my experience no magic bullet . Shot placement and Penetration matter a whole lot more than caliber, expansion and mag capacity!
I’ve shot a lot of handguns in a lot of calibers over the last 55 years. If you want an idea of how hard a round “hits”, get yourself a nice heavy armor steel plate, hang it on chains so it swings freely and shoot it with different rounds. See which ones move the plate the most. That kids, is energy delivered to target. I carry a nine a lot because it’s chambered in small, easy to carry pistols, but I’ve NEVER seen any 9 mm ammo move the plate anywhere near as hard as .45or .357. .41 Mag is impressive. And .44 mag seriously trumps them all. Bullet placement, with any round, is key, but the more energy a round delivers to target the more damage it’s likely to do. Go with what works for you, but bigger will always be better. Think about it. Grizzly bear coming after you-you want that spiffy 5.56, a .308, or a nice hot 45/70 or .458 If you say 5.56 you have no concept of what you’re talking about. The big 45’s have literally killed every species on earth. Same principal applies with handguns. Shoot the most powerful round YOU can shoot in a pistol YOU will actually carry, and don’t worry about the other guys choice-that’s not your problem or concern. A .22 beats a sharp stick but it’ll never deliver the energy a modest centerfire delivers, n o ma tter what ammo you run.
That is antiquated reasoning. You are looking at Foot Pounds of Energy which are not as important as we have found out as what terminal ballistics do. (My bowling pin reference in a couple posts earlier) human bodies are not rigid like steel as bullets penetrate through. As Clint Smith says handgun rounds like homes in people rifles like holes through people. and as far as 22lr almost every hit from a 23 rifle in a torso is fatal and it’s FpE is what well under 100 pounds!
While the 45 and 357 are both great rounds shot placement Amd bullet type being the same it’s a wash.
I have seen people shot, thoracic hits some dropped some ran a few steps and dropped no matter the caliber. Others not hit within the CNS or aortic box ran a lot longer.
You want to knock someone over get a rifle!
HansGruber
SAINT
Sigh.
No bullet handgun bullet, or realistic rifle bullet, had the energy to knock down a person by energy alone; it’s the massive damage the bullet does that makes living things fall down.
If the bullet had the energy to knock someone over, it would also have the energy to knock the shooter over due to recoil. Equal and opposite reaction, remember?
Additionally…when you look at a bowling pin, and how far a bullet moves it (which isn’t far at all)…bear in mind a bowling pin weighs 3.5#.
Realistically—how far do you think it would move, say, a 180# pin?
I’ll put money it wouldn’t even budge it.
I am not the one that used a paragraph to say knockdown power. That’s what I am saying. I was simply replying to Shibadog’s post where he states “knockdown power” without saying Knockdown power.
As far my last statement with a rifle while no it doesn’t have knockdown power but they do have herastatic shock that handguns don't and there is something there however it does knock folks (and game” on theor **** if it hit them in the right place. While I am not a big pelvic shot fan as it might drop them it doesn't stop them from doing bad things. We hit a perp in the Pekingese through the back to the front traveled down his femur exited above the knees he dropped like a sack of potato’s so it anchored him yet still struggled with us whem we put cuts in him
Handguns don’t do that they treat bones like windshields some go in other times deflects
HansGruber
SAINT
Respectfully disagree. If energy doesn’t matter then small calibers are as effective as large ones and that simply is not true, despite what small bore fans may claim. I have hunted a lot of different animals over a lot of decades and have seen the effects of different calibers on a lot of medium sized game. Heavier caliber with heavier bullets simply outperform small bore/light calibers in the field. Carry/use whatever makes you happy. As I said, I often carry a 9, but because it is a very good compromise of power and concealability, not because of its “power:. There is no way on earth that I’d ever hunt a 200lb wild boar with ANY 9 mm. Shot placement is truly of key importantance, but given identical shots, the heavier round will be more likely to result in an animal DRN. We all have to evaluate our circumstances and go with what we are comfortable with and that’s ok. I know folks who carry a .22, their call, and they have to live with the consequences. Most folks, thank God, will never, ever have to actually defend themselves so for them caliber doesn’t truly matter.
Ok I’ll double check next time. But that said Didn’t you vote for Ms Word salad herself?
Penitrarion and okacement matter more than caliber, expansion and mag capacity.
If FOE mattered as much as most think it does as I pointed out as many folks shouldn’t be killed by a 22 LR yet most all folks hit in the torso at room distance from a 22 rifle expire.
And as far as folks that are killed even Medical Examiners can’t tell the difference between pistol calibers unless they measure the projectile.
45 9 38 carry whatever make the hits where hih need they generally work.
HansGruber
SAINT
No…the Current Occupant is the reigning word salad champion.
And I’ll end that derail here.