Sadly I fear the problem today is many folks, including a fair number of LEO’s, do NOT practice enough to insure they can hit what they’re shooting at, relying instead on the 15, 20 or more rounds they have in each magazine rather than in shooting skill. And that completely ignores where all the “misses” go-and they ALL go somewhere, into property or, in the worst case, other people. I find the whole “spray and pray” concept very concerning, yet that is “the” thing for a lot of folks these days. In the real world the first round or two ON Target, will typically resolve the issue. One hit will beat 20 misses, every, single, time.
3 Myths About Handgun Stopping Power
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
The Night Rider
Professional
I don't trust anything smaller than this.
1canvas
Alpha
It’s a bit difficult to make good hits when your surprised, the target and you are both moving, the bad guy is shooting back at you, and you are having an adrenaline dump
. Something that can’t be duplicated on the range 
.
Lab4Us
Custom
Hard to get those acorns to fall on the range…It’s a bit difficult to make good hits when your surprised, the target and you are both moving, the bad guy is shooting back at you, and you are having an adrenaline dump
Model 457
Custom
I have a lot to say about this one. First and foremost, I couldn't agree with you more on the "spray & pray" mentality. In my day of being LE, a very brief day I might add, we did not have semi autos readily available. Some neighboring departments issued the new S&W semi auto 9s. We had wheel guns with a minimum two speed loaders hanging on our belt. We trained, practiced, and drilled relentlessly because the spray and pray option didn't exist. You had 6 shots. Every single one had better count.
As for the "stopping power" argument - As most before me have stated, shot placement makes all of the difference in the world. I have zero doubt that I can effectively defend myself with a 9, 45, 357, etc. However, one study most of the pundits avoid talking about discusses the mental impact of being shot. This article touched on it but didn't really peel the onion back. I speak from experience in that during my short lived LE career, I was involved in three shootouts and sustained gunshot wounds in two of them. Jokingly nobody in the department wanted to be a backup on any of my calls because I seemed to always end up on the calls that ended 11-99.
What I can tell you from experience is that when you sizzle 4 rounds of 9 through a hopped up tweaker, more times than not he'll keep advancing. However, hit the same dude with 2 rounds of 45, he goes into shock pretty quickly. In, or about 1995ish, the S&W Model 457 was approved for carry by my department provided you could qualify with it. I've carried a Model 457 as my EDC since the first time I personally witnessed the difference between the 9 and the 45 when trying to drop a hopped up tweaker.
A decent article and it WAS only about common handgun calibers/loadings. So that is that, no argument. Now then, to pick a nit: this comment here "If a bullet had enough energy to knock someone down? The recoil would knock you down, too. Conservation of momentum isn’t just a suggestion. It’s physics." Absolute nonsense. For those of us who've knocked game right off their feet with either shotguns or rifles - we didn't get knocked off our feet using such hunting systems. I've knocked running hogs right off their feet just as I've knocked deer off theirs. Dead before they hit the ground. But Trader, there are no handguns that deliver rifle/shotgun slug power. Uh huh. The .500 sw mag? Doesn't knock me off my feet and I can place the rounds easily into a dinner plate target. There are other rounds that are in that ballpark. Editors take note - don't ruin an otherwise decent article with needless hyperbole.
I was involved at the same time. And you might agree with my observation.
One of the issues is back in the late revolver days through the early 90’s with the autos there was incentive to shoot good.
1 It was drilled into our heads if we didn’t get it skne in 6 rounds we were dead. And there were no chasing of .16 split times (good luck ona. Revolver or a DA auto) but we were trained to make deliberate trigger pulls for every shot as we were responsible for every round fired and it had to be legal and constitutional
2. incentive to shoot better, boxes upon boxes of ammo given iyt as profeciency practice AND it was a real environment in Saturdays to shoot PPC matches throughout the area representing your agency a small the agencies took turns hosting matches.
3 cops actually would be failed out of the academy or FTO if they screwed up especially in firearms. So they confirmed and instructors back then were true instructors and diagnoseed shootjng errors and could correct uiu. Today instructors are tuber stamped saftey monitors and test (counting holes) administrators and the only diagnostic ability is to yell “quit jerking the trigger”
And Many places don’t fire cops for that in the new “no cop left behind” era
And don’t get me started in the ones that are making in duty TikTok BS posts. Cringe
I have said this multiple times LE has a 10/80/10 breakdown
To 10% are your top shooters and always train on their own dime and time and take it serious
80% while a few near the top the bulk are the ones barley qualified every year and quip “good enough til next year” and are the ones that look horrible on body cam with a mag dunp and if the perp is hit at all it’s in the elbow.
bottom 10% they are the ones that should have been fired but cry to the Inion and the union gets the admin to dumb down the wual course because they are the no cop left behind crowd
Oldmountaiman
Custom
Ever spend any time in a shoot house with live ammo,I have. I am guessing there may be a few in our group that may have had that exhilarating experience. There are probably some that have been shot at in civilian life and I can raise my hand to that. And yes been upside down in a car, those can a little nerve racking also after you been run off the road. We have all ( mostly) had bad experiences one time or another and it's not planned for but hopefully we learn from them and stay tuned.It’s a bit difficult to make good hits when your surprised, the target and you are both moving, the bad guy is shooting back at you, and you are having an adrenaline dump
The Night Rider
Professional
Here is a very good article that addresses this issue. I reference it frequently when these discussions come up
QUOTE from the article
I thought back to the effects different pistol rounds having on animals, victim's of shootings, and Officer involved shootings that I had seen personally and read about during my career. I couldn't think of a single shooting where the person or animal was shot with a 9mm and lived, but would have died if the round would have been a .40S&W or a .45acp. And I could not think of a single shooting where a person or animal was shot with a .40S&W or a .45acp and died, but would have survived if the round would have been a 9mm.
QUOTE from the article
I thought back to the effects different pistol rounds having on animals, victim's of shootings, and Officer involved shootings that I had seen personally and read about during my career. I couldn't think of a single shooting where the person or animal was shot with a 9mm and lived, but would have died if the round would have been a .40S&W or a .45acp. And I could not think of a single shooting where a person or animal was shot with a .40S&W or a .45acp and died, but would have survived if the round would have been a 9mm.
Very true, BUT if you can’t hit on a range you darn sure can’t when things actually go bad. I see/hear about folks that barely qualify on a range session. Then they go out on the street. Wonder how many rounds they’ll expend for every hit in a bad situation. I’m betting a bunchIt’s a bit difficult to make good hits when your surprised, the target and you are both moving, the bad guy is shooting back at you, and you are having an adrenaline dump
1canvas
Alpha
Stopping is the measure, not death.
Technically is stopped, but forever in that case. (Also, I recall that dirtbag lawyers usually can get their criminal clients more for injury than “wrongful” death…)
Cedric
Professional
You're right. Here is the physics the author missed. The author confuses conservation of momentum with Newton's third law, the "action-reaction" law. When I pull the trigger I will get the same force coming back at me, but here's the rub. Newton's second law then comes into effect: Force = mass x acceleration. Since I have way more mass than the projectile, I and my firearm will accelerate back very little due to the reaction force, but the bullet will head downrange at a great velocity. We approximate this with my students in a lab using roller office chairs. (Numbers are examples only.) Have a 100 kg football player push off another student who is 50 kg and see who rolls further. If the action-reaction force is 100 newtons then per the equation the football player accelerates back at 1 m/s2 while the other student accelerates at 2 m/s2. I.e., the lighter student goes further.
Momentum is different. Momentum = mass x velocity and is why a small chunk of metal traveling at high velocity can have more momentum than a bowling ball going down the alley. Momentum is conserved when the bullet hits the target and has nothing to do with the shooter (see above). The projectile may have enough momentum to pass on this momentum to the target to penetrate tissue or an object or move it, etc.
OK, now pick up your worksheets and I'll go through the first two problems with you. The rest is homework and is due tomorrow. Merry Christmas.
KillerFord1977
Emissary
I agree with shot placement, also the difference in caliber also just means bleed out speed (bigger hole yada yada).
But two of the reasons I decided against a .22 for carry (even tho they are just as lethal) is because in a cold climate state, .22 may not make it thru layers of clothes and secondly rimfire seems to have a higher rate of misfires than center fire ammo.
9mm still seemed to be more affordable on the ammunition to keep proficiency (not nearly as cheap as .22LR ammo tho).
The 40SW Beretta 96 G Elite Brigadier I got from my dad is nice, ammo isn't that cheap to practice with tho, and I'm not imagining hardly any difference between that and my XD Mod.3 9mm as far as being effective. I at least also get some form of safety and ability to attach a light on the XD (the 96G is decocker only, no rails, no plates, etc, more of a family heirloom at this point).
In the end, it doesn't make much sense for me to get a caliber that I won't practice with out of concern for ammo cost. If I don't keep up practice, then it won't matter what caliber I have if I'm not ready to use it.
But two of the reasons I decided against a .22 for carry (even tho they are just as lethal) is because in a cold climate state, .22 may not make it thru layers of clothes and secondly rimfire seems to have a higher rate of misfires than center fire ammo.
9mm still seemed to be more affordable on the ammunition to keep proficiency (not nearly as cheap as .22LR ammo tho).
The 40SW Beretta 96 G Elite Brigadier I got from my dad is nice, ammo isn't that cheap to practice with tho, and I'm not imagining hardly any difference between that and my XD Mod.3 9mm as far as being effective. I at least also get some form of safety and ability to attach a light on the XD (the 96G is decocker only, no rails, no plates, etc, more of a family heirloom at this point).
In the end, it doesn't make much sense for me to get a caliber that I won't practice with out of concern for ammo cost. If I don't keep up practice, then it won't matter what caliber I have if I'm not ready to use it.
To paraphrase a friend, and keeping in mind this is out of a 10/22 rifle, he has shattered the backbone of a deer at 300 yards using CCI 22LR stingers.
So even a .22LR is lethal, if you have shot placement. A little less likely with a person who wears layers of clothes and has smaller center of mass (and less power out of a pistol length barrel).
Regarding 9mm/380, 10mm/40SW, 45, do not think that 1mm or so of size is going to make a dramatic difference in lethality, if the shot placement is effective. Main difference you're going to get with those choices in comparison to a 22LR wound is the speed of bleed out, which is still not going to be instantaneous.
So I just simply got what was most available and affordable ammo wise. Would still spend a little more for the carry ammo once known that it works well with the pistol, but for the range I'll go more affordable.
That’s the issue in the no cops left behind era. A standard B27 is huge and with all 8 ring and in counted as full value give someone a perfect or near perfect score. It’s a false sense of proficiency, However most 8 ring or even outer 9 are not anatomical correct and offer no true disabling hit no matter the handgun caliber.
If you overlayed a B8 or Spaulding Thoracic box not even close (which B8’s are a perfect size for that)
So basically with easing requirements in LE to comparison to hunting if the Hunter showed that lackluster 70% that they couldn’t make a heart and lung shot a guide would probably not take them hunting but here states and agencies are stamping yjen to Cary and use guns around people that don’t need to be shoot
But they will claim they are the only ones professional enough in the room (IYKYK)
But in the master 80’s if you didn’t perform then you were shamed I tj stepping up, if that bad you were given remedial and if you didn’t perform you found another line of work.
Why we can’t have nice things
At least here (training wise) it's always "until the THREAT has stopped" , anyone who echos the mentality that they need to shoot to kill or has the mentality that a dead aggressor is better than a living one is going to have a very bad time defending themselves in court for a self defense case as they will pick apart that character if that mentality is posted online. Because if you keep shooting after the threat has stopped, they will say you were no longer in "imminent danger" after that Nth shot, and would no longer be a self defense case.
I feel like people need to recognize they're shooting to "stop a threat", not shooting to warn, to wound, to kill, but to "stop a threat" however far the aggressor keeps being a threat.
The Bias Bit : I also live in a state where we have a duty to retreat, not a stand your ground state, there's no castle doctrine here. We're only supposed to fire if we're in immediate danger and have no ability to retreat. We're also not allowed to use deadly force to protect property (and personally I don't feel like any property is worth someone's life).