Ammunition Question

Saint Joseph · Wednesday at 6:09 PM

I bought a box of Winchester Defender 9mm JHP 147 grain. I want something that'll go through a thick winter coat and a layer or two here in WV should the need occur. Is this safe to use in my Echelon 4.5F? Salesman said yes but, well he's a salesman. It's not the comp model. Thank you in advance.

835mag · Wednesday at 6:20 PM

Should be fine. Your Echelon should take any 9mm ammo you can find on the shelf commercially. Always best to fire a box or two through it to be sure it’s reliable before trusting it for self defense.

Jfal · Wednesday at 6:25 PM

That's an impossible question to answer w/o a ballistic test. JHP has been known to "clog" the flower-petal expansion when traveling through thick clothing....making it act more like a FMJ bullet. Probably good, but ya never know w/o a test. I'd cite the hundreds of Paul Harrell videos on bullet testing on meat targets with numerous types of clothing.

HayesGreener · Wednesday at 6:27 PM

I don't know about that round for penetration. My choice is Hornady Critical Duty

Saint Joseph · Wednesday at 6:29 PM

835mag said:
Should be fine. Your Echelon should take any 9mm ammo you can find on the shelf commercially. Always best to fire a box or two through it to be sure it’s reliable before trusting it for self defense.

Taking the box out this weekend to test it out.

The Night Rider · Wednesday at 6:49 PM

Whenever somebody starts talking about ammunition I mention Dr Gary Roberts.

Service Caliber Handgun Duty and Self-Defense Ammo

6/1/16 When comparing well designed duty handgun ammunition, there are minimal differences in penetration depths and temporary cavity effects, as noted below in the gel shots by Doug Carr: http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg As...

pistol-forum.com

Dr. Gary Roberts is the guy who tells the FBI what to buy. He wrote the article above on self-defense/duty ammunition.

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)
Remington Golden Saber bonded 124 gr +P JHP (GSB9MMD)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester 124 gr +P bonded JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Hornady Critical Duty 135 gr +P PT
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Speer G2 147 gr PT
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

Oaktree45 · Wednesday at 7:10 PM

Your Echelon can handle any ammo on the market including +P+ ammo.

Everyone has their own preference in self-defense ammo but in my book the Federal HST 124 gr +P or the Winchester Ranger T-series 124 gr +P are the two best rounds out there for self-defense. They are consistent performers.

Saint Joseph · Wednesday at 7:13 PM

The Night Rider said:
Whenever somebody starts talking about ammunition I mention Dr Gary Roberts.

Service Caliber Handgun Duty and Self-Defense Ammo

6/1/16 When comparing well designed duty handgun ammunition, there are minimal differences in penetration depths and temporary cavity effects, as noted below in the gel shots by Doug Carr: http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg As...

pistol-forum.com

Dr. Gary Roberts is the guy who tells the FBI what to buy. He wrote the article above on self-defense/duty ammunition.

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)
Remington Golden Saber bonded 124 gr +P JHP (GSB9MMD)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester 124 gr +P bonded JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Hornady Critical Duty 135 gr +P PT
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Speer G2 147 gr PT
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

Thank you

Saint Joseph · Wednesday at 7:14 PM

HayesGreener said:
I don't know about that round for penetration. My choice is Hornady Critical Duty

Thank you, I'll grab a box before this weekend

SL66 · Wednesday at 7:15 PM

Plenty of good defensive rounds out there. I would get a any proven factory round and not worry. If it were that critical, our LEO'S and Combat Soldiers would be wearing " Thick winter coats" ilo plate carriers or BP vest'. Jm2c

Saint Joseph · Wednesday at 7:15 PM

Oaktree45 said:
Your Echelon can handle any ammo on the market including +P+ ammo.

Everyone has their own preference in self-defense ammo but in my book the Federal HST 124 gr +P or the Winchester Ranger T-series 124 gr +P are the two best rounds out there for self-defense. They are consistent performers.

I'll buy a box and see how they do for me, thank you.

Saint Joseph · Wednesday at 7:16 PM

SL66 said:
Plenty of good defensive rounds out there. I would get a any proven factory round and not worry. If it were that critical, our LEO'S and Combat Soldiers would be wearing " Thick winter coats" ilo plate carriers or BP vest'. Jm2c

Sound advice, thanks.

Jsimon78 · Wednesday at 8:08 PM

I personally do Hornady Critical Duty all 3 calibers I have. It’s something that I know works. I honestly don’t like Winchester to much for different reasons.

negolien · Wednesday at 8:14 PM

Saint Joseph said:
I bought a box of Winchester Defender 9mm JHP 147 grain. I want something that'll go through a thick winter coat and a layer or two here in WV should the need occur. Is this safe to use in my Echelon 4.5F? Salesman said yes but, well he's a salesman. It's not the comp model. Thank you in advance.

Try critical duty they are made to prevent stuffing. I love them things

Model 457 · Wednesday at 8:33 PM

I'm partial to Federal Hydra-Shok. That's all I carry in both my 9 and .45.

negolien · Wednesday at 8:53 PM

Google "what is stuffing when it comes to hollow point ammunition". I used to use Speer gold dots before goin to critical duty

Anchorite · Wednesday at 10:32 PM

The Night Rider said:
Whenever somebody starts talking about ammunition I mention Dr Gary Roberts.

Service Caliber Handgun Duty and Self-Defense Ammo

6/1/16 When comparing well designed duty handgun ammunition, there are minimal differences in penetration depths and temporary cavity effects, as noted below in the gel shots by Doug Carr: http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg As...

pistol-forum.com

Dr. Gary Roberts is the guy who tells the FBI what to buy. He wrote the article above on self-defense/duty ammunition.

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)
Remington Golden Saber bonded 124 gr +P JHP (GSB9MMD)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester 124 gr +P bonded JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Hornady Critical Duty 135 gr +P PT
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Speer G2 147 gr PT
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

Is his body of work even regarded as reliable anymore? I think it’s been years since he’s been seen …. IIRC in some tests he was using Clear Ballistics gel which isn't the same as FBI-spec 10% ballistic gelatin.

With all the more recent developments in bullets I think his testing deserves a re-visit.

negolien · 2026-01-15T03:03:53-0600

As a side note ALL of my 1911's absolutely HATE to eat them flying ashtrays LOL Gold dots are nasty... That was the reason I had initially switched to the Critical duties.

Jsimon78 · 2026-01-15T03:07:38-0600

negolien said:
As a side note ALL of my 1911's absolutely HATE to eat them flying ashtrays LOL Gold dots are nasty... That was the reason I had initially switched to the Critical duties.

I don’t mind cleaning up my firearms. I just hate the dirtier ammo out there because it becomes a choir.

The Night Rider · 2026-01-15T12:20:42-0600

Anchorite said:
Is his body of work even regarded as reliable anymore? I think it’s been years since he’s been seen …. IIRC in some tests he was using Clear Ballistics gel which isn't the same as FBI-spec 10% ballistic gelatin.

With all the more recent developments in bullets I think his testing deserves a re-visit.

I can't answer that question but a whole bunch of the genius experts out there refer to that list every time this question comes up. So, I'm going to assume that they think it's still valid

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