Ayoob: Will Carrying a 10mm Hang You in Court?
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
Career woodsman
Alpha
His 'warning' shot was a legitimate self defense act that pushed the two large dogs to cease their charge - which appeared to be an initial step in a potentially lethal attack. Ayoob made no mention of defensive sprays to deter two large dogs, nor later the dog's large, hyper aggressive master. Perhaps shouting "NO, STAY AWAY" at the charging dogs would be a verbal warning to the attacking owner as well.
A warning shot is either a miss or not self defense. If you fear for your life, a warning does not give any such indication of that existential fear.
PieterCoetzee
Elite
When I was a cop I received a jury summons a couple times. I was always willing to listen and decide fairly. Im a firm believer that justice is a process, not a result. That being said whenever I charged someone I was convinced they were guilty.
Regarding I dont like any of the "self defense insurance" plans. They all tell you not to talk until the attorney gets there. Thats a huge mistake. You have to convince the responding officers that you were the VICTIM and the other guy was the SUSPECT. You cant just say "I was afraid". You have to explain and articulate the facts so there no doubt. No Officer or Detective will WAIT for your lawyer. The report will be written and once you are listed as a Suspect or even Victim/Suspect, Baby Jesus coming from Heaven wont change that and youre listed as a bad guy. Waiting for your lawyer may mean the Police dont look for or find evidence confirming your position. Tell the Police what happened, when it happened, and why you had to react like you did. Make them believe...
Regarding I dont like any of the "self defense insurance" plans. They all tell you not to talk until the attorney gets there. Thats a huge mistake. You have to convince the responding officers that you were the VICTIM and the other guy was the SUSPECT. You cant just say "I was afraid". You have to explain and articulate the facts so there no doubt. No Officer or Detective will WAIT for your lawyer. The report will be written and once you are listed as a Suspect or even Victim/Suspect, Baby Jesus coming from Heaven wont change that and youre listed as a bad guy. Waiting for your lawyer may mean the Police dont look for or find evidence confirming your position. Tell the Police what happened, when it happened, and why you had to react like you did. Make them believe...
Tacoma236
Operator
The sad fact IS that liberal prosecutors, incompetent counsel, and liberal justices can violate the rights of any citizen.
THAT is why we need a Federal law that protects citizens who intervene in stopping a violent felony from civil and criminal prosecution regardless of what they do until law enforcement arrives.
THAT is why we need a Federal law that protects citizens who intervene in stopping a violent felony from civil and criminal prosecution regardless of what they do until law enforcement arrives.
devildog@59
Alpha
I have an XDM elite in 10mm which I mainly use at the range. My edc is a SF Garrison 45acp. It was an interesting read about the 10mm for self defense and I personally feel that most jurors don’t know about handguns and deadly force. I have carried a handgun for 45 years and never had to use it, but it’s there if I should ever need it. I also believe that anyone that carries a handgun doesn’t leave the house saying I hope I get to shoot someone today. We all know that carrying takes on a lot of responsibility and knowing the legal system if we ever have to use it.
Jsimon78
Professional
To much training I can see been brought up in this case.
PieterCoetzee
Elite
I think its a coin flip, thats why you need a good attorney AND good subject matter witnesses, who can testify for you and make the other side look foolish. For example if I had been called during the Kyle Rittenhouse trial, I would have asked the judge to tell the prosecutor to stop waving the rifle at everyone unless he was willing to have it waved at him.
PieterCoetzee
Elite
The Bren Ten is one of my Grail guns. I dont ever expect to own one (came close once); but assuming I do at some point (and had enough mags), I surely carry it and use it if I needed.....Of course If I did carry it Id be wearing a pastel coloured linen suit and be driving a Testarossa
Lesson 1: if you carry, carry competent legal defense on retainer through USCCA or other competent service providers.
Lesson 2: training matters. The caliber does not, when it's been used effectively against a human threat.
I always carry 10mm in side- and Backcountry, and as my truck gun. What I'm concerned about is that my Critical Duty car carry load, used in CQ personal defense, which is a 175gr bullet at over 1100fps, is going to punch a half-dollar sized exit wound and keep going into an innocent person. I am *not* worried about the target I intend to stop from harming me.
In the Backcountry, it is a 200gr hardcast load traveling at the same 1160 fps as the Critical Duty, because predators (two and four legged) and angry moose generally are already amped up and need a little more physical deterrence.
Lesson 2: training matters. The caliber does not, when it's been used effectively against a human threat.
I always carry 10mm in side- and Backcountry, and as my truck gun. What I'm concerned about is that my Critical Duty car carry load, used in CQ personal defense, which is a 175gr bullet at over 1100fps, is going to punch a half-dollar sized exit wound and keep going into an innocent person. I am *not* worried about the target I intend to stop from harming me.
In the Backcountry, it is a 200gr hardcast load traveling at the same 1160 fps as the Critical Duty, because predators (two and four legged) and angry moose generally are already amped up and need a little more physical deterrence.
As a retired LEO I have had to testify in court on firearms issues. Unlike the folks here, most prosecutors and defense lawyers have little to no actual firearms experience. Worse, most juniors do not either. The juniors tend to look at the prosecutor as an “expert” who is well trained and educated on the subject.
Unless the defendant has an attorney who has an actual real world working knowledge of firearms, ballistics and self defense, there is no rebuttal to any outlandish claims made by the prosecution.
Unless the defendant has an attorney who has an actual real world working knowledge of firearms, ballistics and self defense, there is no rebuttal to any outlandish claims made by the prosecution.
The “experts” that they pick for court are paid off by one side or the other, frequently don’t have even proper credentials, and are there because they had nothing better to do, ergo they’re primarily sleezebags. I can be an expert in court as an engineer for civil engineering (I’m very far from it too) if I worked at a construction company under a PE and studied for a test. Now wait 10 years and I’ve switched jobs and don’t remember anything… I’m still an expert though!
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Since we’re here, congrats on being a social media expert! Congrats everyone even!
Old_Me
Emissary
what some seem to forget, is where you live, and what you CAN legally carry, as will be documented, on your permit(s).
for instance here in RI, if i were to qualify on a .38 revolver, that is ALL i can carry...not a revolver that shoots both .38 and .357 ammo, and then have that 357 ammo in the gun, or at least the spent shell casings..
THAT will hang you , as you would have only .38 special on your permit....
or if i were to qualify for a 9mm, and carry a 45 caliber,
i had better only have that 9mm on me.
so for me, when i qualified, i did so with a 45....
that way, i can carry ANY caliber, regular ammo or magnum, "up to" that 45.....
so, having the proper caliber as per your carry permit (where you NEED a permit to carry), then use a higher caliber than your qualified/permitted to carry, will get you hung.
i had actual thoughts of renting the .50 caliber Desert Eagle at the range, practice with it at a very high cost, then hopefully pass the qualification test....
man, how many people in my state, would have such a permit..????
i think frankly Mas, failed to bring up such an important subject.
for instance here in RI, if i were to qualify on a .38 revolver, that is ALL i can carry...not a revolver that shoots both .38 and .357 ammo, and then have that 357 ammo in the gun, or at least the spent shell casings..
THAT will hang you , as you would have only .38 special on your permit....
or if i were to qualify for a 9mm, and carry a 45 caliber,
i had better only have that 9mm on me.
so for me, when i qualified, i did so with a 45....
that way, i can carry ANY caliber, regular ammo or magnum, "up to" that 45.....
so, having the proper caliber as per your carry permit (where you NEED a permit to carry), then use a higher caliber than your qualified/permitted to carry, will get you hung.
i had actual thoughts of renting the .50 caliber Desert Eagle at the range, practice with it at a very high cost, then hopefully pass the qualification test....
man, how many people in my state, would have such a permit..????
i think frankly Mas, failed to bring up such an important subject.
However, the adrenaline rush and subsequent crash after the event *does* make the initial interview with subjects unreliable. I'm sure as a former LEO, you were probably trained on this, and that you must interview the person several times over a longer time period than the first hour after the event to develop a clear picture. Same with witnesses. This is the same reason why military AARs aren't filed immediately after the action. So, if you are in a situation where you have had to act in self defense with a firearm, the advice from counsel is always truthfully *qualify* your statements - "Sorry, I'm still shaking from all this, it's hard to breathe, I feel nauseous, (etc) - here is what I think happened, but I need to calm down so I can think clearly and give you an accurate account...". Face the questioner so their body cam can see your mouth move and so the audio is clear.
This also provides sufficient (honest, supportable) time to get your lawyer out of bed and by your side, and makes it clear that your initial statements aren't definitive, regardless of what the detective writes in his or her report.
A good lawyer who is experienced in self defense situations, when you *do* get to talk to them, will be able to understand this, and at trial walk the witnesses and jury through that process to establish that the later accounts of clear self defense are more accurate and reliable.
PieterCoetzee
Elite
Im not opposed to lawyers; but trust me waiting for one to talk is not the best idea. YES initial interviews require follow ups but failing to convince the responding officers that YOU are the VICTIM, is a mistake that will mean you are always playing catch up AND evidence may be missed or tainted
The shooting insurance policies typically hire local firms to have someone on call, he may not be experienced in self defense shootings. Far better I think, is to check out local firms BEFORE you need one
The shooting insurance policies typically hire local firms to have someone on call, he may not be experienced in self defense shootings. Far better I think, is to check out local firms BEFORE you need one
PieterCoetzee
Elite
I had a friend in Alaska who was an Attorney. We had an agreement that I would be his on call expert if he bought me an order of onion rings as payment, just in case the prosecution asked how much I was being paid. All I really expected was transportation and accommodations, being in Alaska was my real fee