For you 1911 guys how many mags do you carry?
- Thread starter PieterCoetzee
- Start date
That is also more worry than real events.
While mags can fail they usually only fail in high volume sessions like a match or a 400 round a day course but a 5-7 round defense shooting bit so much.
Mehta usually causes malfunctions in self defense shootings is poor geip (usually when an LEO has to make a supposed draw vs having the gun already in the hand) not a magazine decided to poop the bed (I could go on about aftermarket gucchi parts but that’s a different thread)
LDB
Master Class
So you and Tom Guvens, whoever that is, and Rangemaster, whatever that is. Possibly a substantial number though, I'll cede that much. But certainly nowhere near every single instance. I don't intend to be one of the few, or not that I believe it in the least, but not the first ever, because I thought I couldn't possibly be. And I falsely believed it was an impossibility that I could possibly need my second spare magazine. Or I was just too lazy or stubborn to concede it was possible even if improbable. So I'll continue to happily carry my spares and have personal peace of mind.
Oldmountaiman
Custom
It can be looked up and two officers I new had mag failures one was at the range and his Beretta mag failed. My other friend was on a call and his Glock mag would not advance the round,he dropped the mag and replaced it. The officers have been called home and it was because of health reason. I'm just stating what has happened and read what has been put in print. I was in the middle east a very long time ago and we had 1911s and mag faileds. My son was in the middle east and his Beretta had mag failure. When I was a LEO there had been some ammo failures and that's why we had extra ammo. Many of us carried a bug and a good thing because when I could afford my brand new S&W Model 19 looked up after first round was fired and cylinder would not advance and had to be returned and was replaced with a new one. All I can really say is everyone can make the choice that fits them but I have seen Murphy show up in the darndest places. Have a good day sir.
LDB
Master Class
I don't need sources for failures. They are plentiful enough. And I was fortunate enough to train with a two time Texas pistol champion who had sense enough to train always have spares. So I'll continue carrying my 2 spares of whatever goes with, magazines or speed loaders, one of which released 3 of 7 rounds while I was carrying it, first person personal experience of a failure of a reload device, and I'll know I'm doing the right thing by carrying two.
HayesGreener
Ronin
Keeping it in perspective. Chances are you will never need to fire your weapon in self defense. But if you need it, nothing else will do. Chances are greater that you will not have a malfunction, but if you need to correct a malfunction, you need it very badly. And chances are extremely rare that you would need to reload, but if you do, you need it very badly and nothing else,qill quite do. All of this is a hedge against things that may go as we had not expected.
You can carry whatever you want that’s your choice. I am just stating factual incidents on the private sector (and LE that needs to reload it’s because they go cyclic split times and hit everything but the perps elbow if that after 17 rounds)
That said If your carry a gun for self defense and don’t know who Tom Givens is or what the Rangemaster program is you just told everyone how amateur you are and I mean no disrespect.
Research TacCon that’s the annual Rangemaster Tactical Conference bo rubber stamped agency instructor need apply you have to be well above that level to be invited by Tom to teach there.
Same with making it through any of the Rangemaster instructor courses you need a 90 or more to pass many many NRA and fokks that only did n agency instructor class have failed
Also as far as say a mag malfunction happens short of a sanctioned cartel hit street criminals aren't that committed to victims that shoot back they scatter like roaches. Uiu can see that from any variety of CCTV footage from robberies to home invasions and I delt with inner city gang bangers for 20 years in the Feds and even the most hard core would say they don’t stay and fight anyone they mistook for being unarmed.
Oldmountaiman
Custom
Oldmountaiman
Custom
Everyone should do what they think is best for themselves. We each have our own road to travel and I say to folks walk with ease and be safe.
PieterCoetzee
Professional
North Hollywood 1977 comes to mind for one...lots of mag changes there
Maybe be sure of the declaratives. I do get what you are suggesting but I still think extra mags are a good thing, if only for malfunctions. If you insist, Ill dig for more incidents where people changed mags in a fight
Maybe be sure of the declaratives. I do get what you are suggesting but I still think extra mags are a good thing, if only for malfunctions. If you insist, Ill dig for more incidents where people changed mags in a fight
Anchorite
Custom
Unless you are active law enforcement, North Hollywood is a terrible example for a civilian.
You are statistically more likely to be killed in a car wreck than a violent encounter.
PieterCoetzee
Professional
Fair enough, OK so how'bout the Westgate mall shooting in 2013 OR the Texas University incident in 1966 More civilians involved there than police. My point was he said NEVER, and I think that was the wrong way to phrase his point
More importantly I wonder about folks who use arguments that RELY on statistics...Statistics would say that they dont need anything anywhere for any reason
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My point was on mitigated risk. If someone wants to carry 5 mags cool. Myself based in my one experience of responding to shootings and doing a lot of training with national respected instructors here are more things to worry about.
Peolme are better served with OC a flashlight Amd some med skills tjan a 3rd or 4th magazine
PieterCoetzee
Professional
Friend we can debate the matter ad nauseum. Its akin to driving across the country without a spare tyre, chances are you wont need it; but I for one wouldnt try it.
As a civilian Im not sure I want OC, as having it will mean that I have to explain why I didnt use it or why I needed to progress beyond OC to lethal force (not insurmountable but another issue in a civilian shooting). Having ONLY a handgun, I was either good to use it or not. PD/LEOs have a use of force ladder that they are required to use. Civilians do not have the same requirements (until they start equipping themselves like a cop). Why muddy the after action with pepper spray?
Notice, Im not saying NEVER. Ill also add that as a cop anytime I used OC when accompanied by other cops I typically didnt have a problem with the suspect because he was out numbered BUT when I was alone and used OC, I cant remember NOT having had a problem
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Anchorite
Custom
Exactly.
Anchorite
Custom
I'm surprised you left out a dozen or more incidents like Luby's cafeteria shooting in Texas or the MGM shooting in Vegas in 2017 by a motivated sniper in a high-rise. At any rate ......
What's wrong with utilizing statistics in deconstructing and constructing arguments? It is risk mitigation to study the data and inferences therefrom (ie, statistics).
You are listing one way attacks where nobody fired back.
Attackers that are fired upon if not incapacitated self delete themselves or disengage at best they shoot a couple over the shoulder rounds while running
Street thugs are not committed like contracted hit men. Crazy active shooter mental types in all but a
Couple cases (the San Bernadine Muslims are one) generally are only committed when nobody shoots back and all of them when shot at if not hit eat their own gun or surrender
Anchorite
Custom
Your point is well taken.
My point I was trying to make - and continue to believe - is that it is irrelevant to the civilian to carry multiple magazines as a civilian is not going to engage in a shoot-out but only seek to disengage and get out of a fight as quickly as possible and defend.
PieterCoetzee
Professional
I used the Texas University as a pre SWAT incident where civilians provided more support then the PD and in fact a civilian accompanied the lone officer who made the final kill BUT admittedly the Texas Tower would be an anomaly by todays standards
The Westgate Mall was unique, in that it was two or three off duty police with handguns taking on FOUR terrorists with AKs. As I recall there was a question of one of the "police" possibly being linked to one of Britain's Special Operations units
I specifically left the MGM shooting out because it was a One Way shooting until they breached the hotel room and Im not aware of any mag changes. Likewise Im not familiar enough with the details of Lubys incident to know the full details.
Yes OF COURSE we use statistics but its the manipulation thats troublesome. Is a guy who runs a stop sign that hits a police car reckless (with intent) or negligent and should have known better, the same with DWIs and Diabetic related crashes; all can be and have been entered in the FBI crime stats as violent crimes. A suspect threatened to kill my family (when I was a cop); but no crime was committed until he spit on me. The threat was just words (no crime); but the spit was an assault, punishable with up to 10 years. So spitting got listed as a felony (over 1 year potential imprisonment)....Im not sure if he reloaded
Further do gang on gang shootings count? As they dont make FBI statistics with after action reports but clearly empty mags at the scene indicate a few mag changes
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