My EDC, Pepper Spray 😲

[1canvas]

Pepper spray can be a distraction but it is NOT a self defense.

It does fail, especially on people who have been sprayed by it before. It can fail if they are wearing glasses. If you use the stream style you can miss. If you use the foam style they can wipe it off and throw it back. If you use the fog the wind can blow it back at you.

Most importantly in many/most places using pepper spray is the same category as using a firearm. Its an assault. You are either justified or not. Using less lethal doesnt make you a good guy, just a guy who was faced with a threat who didnt eliminate it and left it to attack someone else

If you truly must have a less lethal tool then get a TASER (a real Taser not a stun gun) BUT again Im left with why less lethal?

Pepper spray is in the same category as a firearm, that’s just crazy, who would ever think that .
Reasonable force is how you will be judged, every assault does not rise to a level where a firearm is justifiable, for those situations a quality pepper spray is the best option. Just like any self defense tool education and training is a must .
A taser works 100% 50% of the time, would not be my choice. With all of the badge cam videos will show that.

 

[3L120]

Respectfully your statements are 30 some years outdated or you have never worked any use of force stuff in the last 25 years if ever.


Tasers are only effective 50% of the time, convicted peeps know how to break the wire by rolling. And is only good for one suspect. OC you can use for multiple persons at once

The OC of today is much more effective than it was 30 years ago. And the tales of foam being thrown back was exaggerated as much as the Beretta M9 slides separating.

While the early stuff from the 70’s to 90’s had issues with drunk or drugged suspects the last 20 years the quality stuff like POM or Saber is in the 90% plus effective range. As far as tolerating it inside he Federal Prison system out of several dozens I have sprayed myself and the hundreds of other incidents I supervised the decontamination I have only known 2 people that took a while can of it with minimal effects

As far as OC use being an Assualt it’s a misdemeanor Assualt at best if your wrong you go home 500 dollar bill and your not in prison. The other is thwre ks no briars or broke bones, teeth eye sockets or anything like a physical fight (generally and the suspect falling as a reaction isn’t on you as the first aggressor ) That’s a far and away different issue than shooting aomeone as it’s investigated as a homicide or attempted homicide and someone else gets to decide if you met subsection A, b or c to make it justified.

While George Zimmerman was silly for putting himself in his position had he used a can of POM nobody would know who he or the dead kid was, he wouldn’t be 400K in debt, lost his house, habe his wife leave him or be completely unemployable due to negative national reconciliation.

Chuck Haggard who i train with and is a friend had an excellent Less Lethal Insteuctor course open to anyone. Besides my agency stuff I took his class and am certified with Agile Training and teach Les’s lethal to private citizens

Here’s a great link to listen to him about OC



Here’s his next class if your interested

OC Instructor — Agile Training and Consulting

Instructor level course on OC spray and other less lethal options. OC Instructor class description. This is an instructor level course primarily geared towards covering the subject of less than lethal options for everyday people, CCW carriers, or even on duty/off duty cops.

site.corsizio.com

If using a TAser, do your best to maneuver the suspect into water…works much better, especially if he/she is barefoot…Bern there, done that.

 

[PieterCoetzee]

Pepper spray is in the same category as a firearm, that’s just crazy, who would ever think that .

Maryland, and Im sure many other places has 1st and 2nd degree charges. Second degree can be anything from a slap or shove or SPIT up to a good fist fight; but once weapons are used it becomes First degree.

I once had a guy threaten to kill my wife and daughters, then go onto describe them and the car my wife drove and where we lived....We knew he had weapons at home and when he said he'd use a rifle so I would know it was coming; I took him serious We were at the ER for an psych eval. He was cuffed but he was sooo big he needed two pairs of cuffs to secure him.

When he made the threats (not a crime), I took a picture of him to show my wife; then he spit on me. We had no charges on him except the spitting. So after he got out of his 28 day eval he was charged with second degree assault, given a high bail; then his friends from the eval hospital bailed him out. I carried a rifle everywhere I went. Back then the folding chairs were carried in bags. I had a bright blue bag made to hold an AR and another for a 870. 24 was a popular TV show and Jack Bower always carried a laptop bag, it was the perfect size for a Mac 10

When it went to court his attorney claimed he was "back on his meds" and was fine. I asked to make a victim impact statement before sentencing. I told the judge that it was hard to explain to a 4 year old why daddy had to take a AR to the playground. I said I finally told her, "Monsters are real and it was daddy's job to protect her"

The judge took a recess then came back with a sentence. She sentenced him to 10 years and suspended all but one year. She added that if the officer ever saw him near his family she would understand if he shot him because threats are real

 

[ECS686]

NO only 7 years since I retired. I saw Pepper Spray work and fail when I needed it most. I dumped a can on a 60 year old man who took off his glasses and was still able to cut me with a knife I hadnt seen (otherwise I would have gone straight to guns)



Ive seen used a Taser used less but it NEVER failed and I never saw anyone roll while the pulse was running. As for multiple suspects yes OC can work but then I cant imagine using pepper when I was out numbered, thats clearly a case for LETHAL force


Well yes and no; Maryland calls it a misdemeanor but the penalty is up to 10 years (making it a defacto felony). Its not a $500 fine and go home


ONLY if you get listed as a Suspect. This is were "I want a lawyer" makes you look like a criminal and gets you placed in the Suspect block instead of being identified as the VICTIM. Ultimately you are one or the other. IF you can articulate the events explaining that you were Victim, then you ARE the Victim. Using Lethal force wont change that, in fact having access to both a gun and OC will bring questions into the event, as in why didnt you use the OC? As a civilian you have zero obligation to use less lethal. You are either an innocent Victim or not


The Zimmerman case was a product of the leftist media. In any other case he would have been described as black or latino BUT since the little angle was black the media couldnt run with a black on black crime and amazingly they felt the need to show a much younger picture of Travon making him look even more innocent and angelic. Zimmerman told his story to 911, but the media edited the 911 tape making Zimmerman look like a racist

If Zimmerman had used OC, chances are he would have still been sued by Travon's parents who moved quickly to seek $$$ from the his death.

Ultimately Zimmerman was right in what he did; but he failed to make his events the priority for the responding officers.

AND as for the original poster of this thread, I seem to recall he was in his 70s with arthritis; THAT alone is good reason to go immediately to guns. He sounds like hes in no condition spray and run and if he gets a whiff of the spray then hes in even worse shape.

Im not opposed to OC as a distraction. For that he might want to consider the OC "grenades" that look like a regular can of OC but once the button is depressed they dump the whole can. So press and draw the gun; if the OC works great if not send the threats a few rounds of whatever caliber he can handle; but for me Id leave the OC at home

I just dont see any reason for civilians to ever need less lethal in a lethal force incident,

OC grenades if a private citizen can even get yjen would be extremely bad optics and outside of a crowd mob scenario not sure it’s the right tool. We had them and never used them.

As far as OC spray that is found anywhere I would look at the manufacture of your agency’s OC. As Haggard pointed out in the podcast I shared Topeka KS had great results with it but Kansas State Patrol did not as they had a less effective brand.

In the Federal Prison System line staff were not issued OC until 2012 and only at High security facilities which is where I did 20 years. It was great stuff and **** down incidents quick. We had a 90% reduction of staff injuries (usually from running responding and getting injured) and these were Federal US Penitentiary inmates who were hard to kill (several were shot and stabbed and the blunt force trama I witnessed from seeing them assaulted and stabbed by inmates running yjen to the ER at a local hospital and they lived was amazing) but they dropped with the OC so again the brand has a lot to do with it. I know during the summer of love 2020 riots places like Minnisota and Portland used a very deluged brand of OV that most major municipal PDs and the Feds don’t

As far as civilians not needing less lethal I strongly disagree. OC is a great tool as 99.9% of incidents don’t rise to the level of shooting them with a gun or during them with a knife.

If aomeknw having a mental episode comes at you woth no weapon or gets into or close to close personal space aggressive panhandling you can’t (or would be hard pressed to articulate the reasonableness) to shoot them but and hate to say it but most people are not prepared to go hands on or have the skills to do it like they thing they do. OC is a great tool somewhere between a harsh word and a gun!

Also related the Byrna pepperball gun I would not recommend as I have shot a ton of fokks woth pepper balls, it does take a minute to take effect when shooting them in the upper thoracic area as you are suppose to. As it doesn’t break up whem shootjng the body we had better luck shootjng walls which when someone is in a cell on a use of force we had that option, normal earth people in a scenerio where you would use OC on the street not so much of an option.

 

[PieterCoetzee]

OC grenades if a private citizen can even get yjen would be extremely bad optics and outside of a crowd mob scenario not sure it’s the right tool. We had them and never used them.

On the contrary, they are sold on Amazon. They look like a regular can of OC, just push the button and it locks open spraying the entire contents until its empty

If aomeknw having a mental episode comes at you woth no weapon or gets into or close to close personal space aggressive panhandling you can’t (or would be hard pressed to articulate the reasonableness) to shoot

OMG, Officer he was crazy raving about going to kill another person because he did it before. Look at him, hes huge and Im 70 years old. I can hardy walk because of arthritis but I came here to buy flowers for my wife's grave. I couldnt get him to leave me alone I even tried to give him money but he said he was going to kill me because the voices told him...Office can you call an ambo for me my chest is tight. Do you have some water, I dont feel so well. I need to check my insulin. Can I get the heart pills from my car. Officer I didnt know what else to do, he just wouldnt stop...........Nothing hard about that


You wanna carry pepper spray go ahead. You wanna believe it will work for you, go ahead.

 

[ECS686]

On the contrary, they are sold on Amazon. They look like a regular can of OC, just push the button and it locks open spraying the entire contents until its empty

OMG, Officer he was crazy raving about going to kill another person because he did it before. Look at him, hes huge and Im 70 years old. I can hardy walk because of arthritis but I came here to buy flowers for my wife's grave. I couldnt get him to leave me alone I even tried to give him money but he said he was going to kill me because the voices told him...Office can you call an ambo for me my chest is tight. Do you have some water, I dont feel so well. I need to check my insulin. Can I get the heart pills from my car. Officer I didnt know what else to do, he just wouldnt stop...........Nothing hard about that


You wanna carry pepper spray go ahead. You wanna believe it will work for you, go ahead.

Well first force desperate is a totally different realm.

Second I never once said to only carry OC I do however recommend everyone gaht Carey’s a gun should probably have OC just like all of my fellow Rangemaster instructors (as in Tom Givens Rangemaster conpany that’s vetted and accredited in several states) do. After avoidance oC is a great option as I said most cases don’t fall within shootjng being reasonable.

Look up the likes of John Hearne (Two Pillars Training and Rangemastwr Staff Instructor and I have AI’d for him) Wayne Dobbs and David Cagle (Hardwired Tactical) I have Chuck Haggards link, Lee Weems (first Person Safety and Rangemastwr staff Instructor) Adam Wjnch (Defenders USA) and all of those are good friends of mine I have trained with and help with their classes. Several have stayed at my house


And as far as the 70 year old feeble example thugs don’t telegraph their intentions so Gramdma is hit and on the ground before she knows what happens. Real thugs don’t think normal people do.

Where a lot of LEO or Military folks fail is they fall within theor agency echo chamber, they have a small exposure to nationwide incidents and base a view on their own little agency echo chamber. Most don’t try and improve woth any of the much more professional private sector teainjng kine Humsite or Rangemastwr or those companies that o listed. Those companies pull in experience from every state and agency in the country to better prepare the people gaht arent affairs to live their institutional inbreeding behind.

Like what LAPD does right their hit % in shootings, (which LAPD shoots once a month and has a 68-70% hit rate) and what NYPD does or could do a little better to increase their hit % (which NYPD shoot twice a year and have a 20 something hit %)

 

[PieterCoetzee]

Well first force desperate is a totally different realm.

Second I never once said to only carry OC I do however recommend everyone gaht Carey’s a gun should probably have OC

I think Ive explained my point and we just dont agree. Thats fine, you should do what you feel is right for you. I will do what works for me and it wont include OC for anything other than a very temporary distraction; because if Im spraying Im only a couple ounces from shooting.

Sounds like you live in one of those $500 fine places with no further repercussions. Here, and I think most places a misdemeanor assault will mean an end to owning fire arms. So I dont take using it lightly. My plan is no OC unless its a shooting situation and then, why OC when you should be shooting

Best

 

[ECS686]

I think Ive explained my point and we just dont agree. Thats fine, you should do what you feel is right for you. I will do what works for me and it wont include OC for anything other than a very temporary distraction; because if Im spraying Im only a couple ounces from shooting.

Sounds like you live in one of those $500 fine places with no further repercussions. Here, and I think most places a misdemeanor assault will mean an end to owning fire arms. So I dont take using it lightly. My plan is no OC unless its a shooting situation and then, why OC when you should be shooting

Best

Respectfully you have stayed with your opinion however outside of saying what you saw or whatever happened at your department you haven’t shared anything to support it.

I have shared some experience and I also have pointed out relevant national training programs for a reference to back up my own findings experience

Let me address your 500 dollar issue since apparently you took offense to it. I personally have been mirandized twice by OIG agents on two seoerate incidents withjn my agency after IA cleared the use of force under a possible civil rights violation. It was quickly dropped as the IA stuff was used however that didn’t make it easy. My point is I have been under the microscope there and I have been cross examined in Federal court from plaintiffs attorney on civil lawsuits both personally and against the agency.

I have also when I was a municipal LE seen a lot of folks get themself jammed up because they went too far in theor response of an alley threat where their force wasn't deemed “reasonable “ so I have seen both sides

And as someone involved-in the training world said “a gun is like a hammer, if that’s all you have everything looks like a nail”

If you really thjnk aomeknw is damned for using OC how can you even also recommend a firearm? They would really be jammed up


If you have not you really should listen to the podcast I shared earlier Chuck Haggard breaks down a lot of things and articulates things as good as I have heard.

But at the end of the day we all can take or read up on others experiences OR dismiss everyone that might have valid experience. In that case I say they can figure it out in our own.

 

[PieterCoetzee]

Respectfully you have stayed with your opinion

Well yeah...

Let me address your 500 dollar issue since apparently you took offense to it.

I didnt take offense. If a $500 fine is the case where you live then so be it BUT its not the case anywhere I have ever lived or worked.

If OC is appropriate then so is lethal force. If lethal force isnt appropriate then neither is OC. Its that simple

I have seen both sides

Welcome to the club, at the local and federal level and I walked away unscathed.

And as someone involved-in the training world said “a gun is like a hammer, if that’s all you have everything looks like a nail”

Thats cute of course everything is a nail, because the gun doesnt come out until its appropriate AND as I keep saying civilians have zero responsibility to apply a less lethal option before climbing the Use of Force ladder Further having less lethal and not using it only brings into question the why didnt you use that...its the why didnt you shoot them in the leg argument

If you can show me civilian case law involving using OC in a actual lethal force incident I might be interested, otherwise no thanks. Ive been a trainer too I suspect maybe longer than some but I also spent my time working to pass the Bar Exam.

You seem like a nice guy, very passionate about this topic. I think you are misguided; but thats an issue only you can decide. We simply disagree. My position IS tested. Ask your trainers for case law showing anytime a civilian was in trouble for using lethal force when lethal force was appropriate OR been told he should have used OC because the guy attacking him didnt merit lethal force

So again do what you want, as for me I have no more Fs to give

 

[ECS686]

Well yeah...

I didnt take offense. If a $500 fine is the case where you live then so be it BUT its not the case anywhere I have ever lived or worked.

If OC is appropriate then so is lethal force. If lethal force isnt appropriate then neither is OC. Its that simple


Welcome to the club, at the local and federal level and I walked away unscathed.

Thats cute of course everything is a nail, because the gun doesnt come out until its appropriate AND as I keep saying civilians have zero responsibility to apply a less lethal option before climbing the Use of Force ladder Further having less lethal and not using it only brings into question the why didnt you use that...its the why didnt you shoot them in the leg argument

If you can show me civilian case law involving using OC in a actual lethal force incident I might be interested, otherwise no thanks. Ive been a trainer too I suspect maybe longer than some but I also spent my time working to pass the Bar Exam.

You seem like a nice guy, very passionate about this topic. I think you are misguided; but thats an issue only you can decide. We simply disagree. My position IS tested. Ask your trainers for case law showing anytime a civilian was in trouble for using lethal force when lethal force was appropriate OR been told he should have used OC because the guy attacking him didnt merit lethal force

So again do what you want, as for me I have no more Fs to give

Ok I tried to politely conversation but here why I responded to your original comment. You are dead wrong period. Yes at one time what you mentioned about effectiveness of OC it wasnt FOId, they have changed a lot since the 1970’s and everywhere that still use it (but most places LEOs refuse because well they might get some in them going hands in)

The Foam comment about suspects throw in it back is completely false, the same peolme that spread it are the same personalities that talk about gang members pulling slides off Beretta’s while Officers just stood there but they never witnessed it (because LAPD said it was BS and nebwr happened)

While some things might have been the way we use to do it we don’t now because things have changed, we use to nebwr wear seat belts or harnesses in tree stands deer hunting but we saw enough folks get hurt we got a clue and changed.

As far as Marand I get it’s a little different there I mean that state is the some reason every gun in the country came with a spent casing until a couple years ago whem they dropped the asinine case. But you also mentioned 10 years for a misdemeanor….i have to call BS

And while we both say we can do whatever I will just add the last conversation I had with a guy from Maryland (not saying you are from there but you mentioned it so it’s some connection ) was trying to flex about teainjng was against OC and recommend hamds a knife (which is lethal force) and gun.

Oh and he also caught people’s on fire for “stress inoculation)

So again uiu can have ykur views but if they are off base some legitimate trainers will try and have a respectful dialogue.

Below is a pic of the hero catching a student on fire (and he had a BS story that it was an accident because of the gas)

And the whole thread which o have the same user name if anyone wants to read.

This conversation is a perfect example that fokks should get any trainers and just because someone’s retired LE or Mikitary if they don’t have any secondary relevance courses (above the joke of NRA) they are flipping a coin if the stuff is antiquated or up to date for the world we live in.

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[PieterCoetzee]

Ok I tried to politely conversation

Is English not your preferred language? We can try a few others if that helps. I find your posts difficult at best to interpret because of your phrase use and spelling/typos.

As for a 2nd degree assault in Maryland being a misdemeanor and still punishable with up to ten years, well its not BS; but if you cant accept that then go there and see OR maybe youd trust google; BUT like I said:

Second-degree assault in Maryland is a serious misdemeanor, defined under MD Code § 3-203 as intentional physical injury, attempted injury, or offensive, unwanted touching. It carries penalties of up to 10 years in prison and/or a $2,500 fine.
Key Details About Second-Degree Assault in Maryland

• Definition: Covers both harmful, unwanted physical contact (battery) and intentionally placing someone in fear of immediate harm (assault), even if no contact occurs.
• Penalties: Generally a misdemeanor punishable by up to 10 years in prison, a fine up to \(\$2,500\), or both.
• Law Enforcement Victim: If the victim is a law enforcement officer, parole/probation agent, or first responder acting in their duty, the charge is a felony, carrying up to 10 years and a \(\$5,000\) fine.
• Comparison to First-Degree: Second-degree is the "lesser" charge, covering incidents that do not involve serious physical injury or the use of a firearm, which constitute first-degree assault.

Im sorry you disagree; but life has taught me some just refuse to see the truth. Live your life as you choose
...and I still have No Fs to give
Now picture me squinting my eyes, pinching my nose, with a slight tremor

 

[Retired Bum]

Stop, both of you!

No, I'm not an administrator, or anything else, but this is insanity. Two adults arguing about nothing. Just stop...

 

[PieterCoetzee]

Stop, both of you!

No, I'm not an administrator, or anything else, but this is insanity. Two adults arguing about nothing. Just stop...

Fair enuf'
AND Thank you

 

[3L120]

On the contrary, they are sold on Amazon. They look like a regular can of OC, just push the button and it locks open spraying the entire contents until its empty

OMG, Officer he was crazy raving about going to kill another person because he did it before. Look at him, hes huge and Im 70 years old. I can hardy walk because of arthritis but I came here to buy flowers for my wife's grave. I couldnt get him to leave me alone I even tried to give him money but he said he was going to kill me because the voices told him...Office can you call an ambo for me my chest is tight. Do you have some water, I dont feel so well. I need to check my insulin. Can I get the heart pills from my car. Officer I didnt know what else to do, he just wouldnt stop...........Nothing hard about that


You wanna carry pepper spray go ahead. You wanna believe it will work for you, go ahead.

As I have said…it is all about the report is written.

 

[Retired Bum]

Fair enuf'
AND Thank you

There's no sides to be chosen, nobody is the innocent person in this matter... You're both right and wrong simultaneously.

I'm out.....