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Gun Games are not STREET training

Guys if what I say bothers you so much, why do you bother to respond? You act like the pretty girl clique who had someone sit at their table. I have NO doubt that there is a lot of experience here and that much of the membership is older. I can respect that. I certainly havent resorted to name calling and then of course the meme after meme after meme thats so common form many of you. As for the neighbor thing, maybe just maybe some of you are the neighborhood association self appointed captains that go around measuring the height of everyones grass so they can complain.

I dont mind the attacks (frankly I consider the source), I just wish youd either make good points or go back to doing each others hair and make up. Oh look Sally chipped a nail.
 
ECS686 said:
When I shoot a match I only worry about me
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...and thats all you should concern yourself with in a match. I had a buddy who was good in tennis. He ended up in a match with Arthur Ashe when he was at his height. Of course he lost but he still remembers that he did his best


I dont remember the name; but I recall there was a competition that was supposed to be for concealed carry guns and gear. That sounded great but shortly turned into just another game. Guys started wearing clothing they would never wear on the street to conceal their guns, and using guns that were set up for matches not daily carry. The match rules forbid shoulder holsters and crossdraw rigs.

I have no problem with the guy who carries a 2011 or a compensated gun for daily use. Thats a decision he makes every day. AND to be clear I have no problem with the guys that shoot matches. Go ahead have fun, win the prize, and congratulations; its just that I dont think its training for anything other than the next match.

I shot PPC with my duty gun (SIG P226) and gear. Of course I lost the matches but I told myself it was trigger time and maybe PPC was but it was static where guys were using revolvers with sights extended beyond the barrel and used carbide lamps to smoke their front sight before each course. I shot duty ammo and they shot light reloads
I shot one IPSC match using a HK P7M13 (my daily carry) and wearing combat boots (my daily wear), I lost; and I quickly realized the match was designed around 1911s. The rules REQUIRED a mag change at 7 rounds. As if on the street I would swop out a high cap mag just because the bad guy only had a 7 round gun???
I shot Cowboy action using a 1897 shotgun; but the rules REQUIRED only two shells to make it "fair" for the SxS guys. I never fought fair in a street fight.
I could go on Im sure guys that shoot the matches have fun, They should but its a mistake to compare Split Times with the street, especially with ammo for the match and street ammo.


If you made it this far, thanks for considering what Im trying to say.
 
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I think it was Fairbairn (Commando knife fame) who said the moment you give awards, you change tactics

The moment awards or rewards are introduced, you can see the change from training to the focus on winning the game People shift focus away from intrinsic motivation to be better to whatever is necessary to win the game "The Reward Pivot" - Players change their tactics for whatever is needed to win the award, sometimes at the expense of the original intent of the practice.
 
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The stress induced by the timer is the closest thing most people will have to compare to that of being shot at. In reality we know it’s no comparison. One is life and death, the other is merely a score. But to consider shooting competitions, “gun games” as you pompously say, have no benefit in real life training scenarios is both ignorant and inaccurate. I’ve found shooting uspsa to have a great benefit to all the basics one needs to try and stay alive if ever in a gunfight. First off you have to keep your Witt’s about you when the timer goes off. Then there are basic gun handling skills like drawing, grip, trigger control, reloads, sight picture and taking enough time to make good hits while moving but not going so slow you’d make a good target.

After reading through your o.p. you have a lot of derogatory things to say about shooting competitions but you don’t bother to tell us how you’d train for such a scenario as a real life gunfight. Please enlighten us with your great knowledge and experience.
 
I was an active IDPA shooter for about 12 years until health issues got in the way. I considered it to be the best possible training for a real world gunfight and yes, I did compete with my EDC gear. No, there wasn't anybody shooting back. But you are required to draw from concealment, use cover, shoot from awkward positions, shoot and/on the move and other skills that help win an actual gunfight.
Even though I no longer compete, I do still use my club's action range from time to time to practice these skills. I truly believe that these "gun games" have made me much more able to defend myself if the worst should happen.
I guess you're entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to think you're wrong.
 
Go out, do some strenuous exercise til your heart rate is up really high and you can barely catch your breath, your fine motor skills are gone, and your peripheral vision is narrowed. That is what simulates a 10+ pucker factor event. Now go shoot your drills.
 
This is a sentiment that has been expressed since the 1970's with people competing in PPC. A fairly low percentage of gun owners/shooters will ever attend IDPA or USPSA much less do force on force training, just like only a miniscule number of 'open-carry' folks have done firearms retention training or carry in holsters that have more than friction or gravity retention.

My sentiment is that anything that has you operating your firearms under a (perceived) level of stress is a net positive. No, it's not live fire training or gunfighting -but I think you can get that with some Russian instructors if you're bold enough (:.

I've coerced many friends from LE into attending IDPA matches and had precious few continue shooting them. It's kinda soul crushing when you're a decades long professional gun carrier and you get absolutely blown away in a match by some medical appliance company H/R dude. When I was working I faithfully went to self funded classes with good trainers at least once a year on top of agency training. I also got in a half dozen IDPA or more matches yearly, shot with whatever equipment I was carrying for work or its equivalent and shot in a manner as close to decent tactical concepts as I could, within the rules of the game. I don't feel that it was bad for my skill level for work. YMMV.
 
835mag said:
The stress induced by the timer is the closest thing most people will have to compare to that of being shot at. In reality we know it’s no comparison. One is life and death, the other is merely a score.
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Agreed

835mag said:
as you pompously say, have no benefit in real life training scenarios
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Pompous really? Maybe if you read what I said you would have seen that I repeatedly said its a mistake to think of it as a substitute for training for the street. Maybe you would have also seen that I said, if guys like it they should enjoy it, just enjoy it for what it is and what its not.

835mag said:
First off you have to keep your Witt’s about you when the timer goes off.
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Except that theres no buzzer while you are readying yourself on the street. Whats the first thing you do after running a course? Unload and show your gun is empty. Thats probably not something you wanna do after a real world gun fight. These are conditioned/trained results in the games. Its not something I want to have in my post shooting wheelhouse. Id much rather be conditioned to do a proactive reload go to a sul position. Up to you
835mag said:
basic gun handling skills like drawing, grip, trigger control, reloads, sight picture and taking enough time to make good hits while moving but not going so slow you’d make a good target.
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Or being so worried about your time that you go TOO Fast

835mag said:
After reading through your o.p. you have a lot of derogatory
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Derogatory? again with the name calling. AND again theres nothing wrong with the games AND had you continued to read, you might have seen what I suggested.

835mag said:
Please enlighten us with your great knowledge and experience.
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And now who is being condescending?
 
BruceMc said:
Go out, do some strenuous exercise til your heart rate is up really high and you can barely catch your breath, your fine motor skills are gone, and your peripheral vision is narrowed. That is what simulates a 10+ pucker factor event. Now go shoot your drills.
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Great idea! Before our Patrol Rifle Quals we had to do push ups and jumping jacks
 
FNFAN said:
This is a sentiment that has been expressed since the 1970's with people competing in PPC. A fairly low percentage of gun owners/shooters will ever attend IDPA or USPSA much less do force on force training, just like only a miniscule number of 'open-carry' folks have done firearms retention training or carry in holsters that have more than friction or gravity retention.
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ADREED!

By far, the BEST substitute is FORCE on FORCE with Simunitions using the same type of weapon/holster you carry daily. Its NOT cheap but when you count the paint and later count the bruises you see your mistakes. A close second is Airsoft, again with similar weapon and gear. A distant third is the laser type "games". You dont feel the mistakes but you know when youve been hit
 
PieterCoetzee said:
Im guessing most cops dont like the games because they are counter to their training and experience. Its just a guess but try giving them simunitions and see what happens
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Yes, I suppose that's true. Depending on the training and agency cadre doing the training....

IDPA GAME priorities required under time:
  • Safe handling of firearms during an engagement operating from concealment or duty rig.
  • Using cover or concealment and not exposing yourself unnecessarily.
  • Managing ammunition to ensure you're ready to engage the next target.
  • Accurate fire to center of mass or CNS.
  • Controlling round count sent down range.
  • Shooting hostages is frowned upon.
  • Penalties for not engaging a threat target.
So totally impractical right... Definitely counter to some folks training and experience? "Gonna getchu kilt onda streets!"

My first response was kind of positive/generic as overall you're correct -gun games are not gunfighting. This one would be more along the lines of please... "Do Not Try To Blow Smoke Up My Colon."

I agree that simunition training is great. I've been lucky to have been around some good agency training, from the 1980's using revolvers for building search training and the old SPEER primer driven plastic bullets, to Simunitions to a 5 tiered shoot-house set of courses with live rounds. I stand by what I said previously. There is nothing "negative" about practical shooting competition and there are many positives -for people that have the maturity and discernment to realize it is NOT THE SAME as a gunfight. Also there have been IDPA courses of fire that would have been beyond the equipment levels for all but the largest agencies. Ever shoot from a chain hung wobble platform? I hadn't either and it was humbling. Ever do live fire with the target approaching at running speed?

Like I said. I've heard similar since the late 1970's and its as compelling as the one or two folks that expressed "Oooh you go to extra classes so you can be better at killing folks" :unsure: . I'm going to duck out right here. If you don't think the GAMES are of benefit to you, please don't shoot them.
 
FNFAN said:
There is nothing "negative" about practical shooting competition and there are many positives -for people that have the maturity and discernment to realize it is NOT THE SAME as a gunfight.
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This one sentence is all that would have been needed to counter the o.p.’s argument.

Well said.
 
POSTED previously: There is nothing "negative" about practical shooting competition and there are many positives -for people that have the maturity and discernment to realize it is NOT THE SAME as a gunfight.

835mag said:
This one sentence is all that would have been needed to counter the o.p.’s argument.

Well said.
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EXCEPT There are negatives the competition breeds the negatives and teaches the negatives; just look at all the posts defending it as training for real world gunfights. It teaches those involved to "play" the course and the course isnt the street. Judas thats what I have been saying from the begining, does nobody read anymore?

It teaches speed when sometimes running into the scenario isnt called for or even a good idea. It lets the competitors see the course a head of time. I never had a bad guy tell me where he was gonna be so I could shoot him. They use walls made out of netting so the competitors can see thru the walls. It encourages and permits guns and rigs and loads that would never be used for daily carry AND it encourages bad habits like unloading and showing clear after a run AND no one is shooting back at you.

I only know ONE way to teach how to react to incoming rounds, and thats Force on Force.

Never once did I have a buzzer tell me when a fight was going to start. Never once did I know when the fight was over OR have painted targets to tell me who were shoot and dont shoot targets. Never once did I get to walk through the course before the shooting started. Never once was I told when to change mags or empty and clear my gun and and and.

Its like saying Monopoly trains you to be a millionaire. How'bout plating a round of gulf, down range from a driving course and calling that Practical Gulf

Its my HOPE that every shooter has the maturity to handle themselves BEFORE they leave their house


Again do what you want and I truly hope you never have to test it.
 
You're (trying to) equating shooting matches to real life situations.

When I was a Cop I shot IPSC and USPSA in my duty gear, knowing full well it didn't equate to any real life scenario.

It wasn't meant to, it was to be able to reliably function with my gear under stress. And, manufactured stress, is just as good a stress to learn under as any other.

I wasn't gunning for the top ten, or even top twenty. I generally hung in the middle. But I was using a triple retention holster, full power ammo (ballistic equivalent to duty HP), and repetition from lots, and LOTS of off duty practice.
 
What about lazer tag and paint ball? Getting hit in the face with a paint ball isn't very fun. These are "gun games", are they not? Getting buzzed out or having a paint ball hit you seem "real life" enough for me. I'll be over by the big windmill next to the clown with the big nose now.....
 
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