Thanks. This early training became real to me a few years later when a family member broke that rule and fired a shot into the ceiling and out the roof.And there's the trick.
The canonical "Four Rules" starts off with "treat every weapon as if it is loaded," but the truth of the matter is that this is faulty thinking.
I still use it for beginners and kids (as it is a great baseline safety measure), but as soon as feasible, I move them to a higher level of Rule 1, which I've seen/heard several instructors I respect use as: "know the condition of the weapon." Why? Because as they advance down the road as shooters, they will come upon situations where that gun will ABSOLUTELY be "unloaded" in some form or another. And furthermore, because we should never assume, as canonical verbiage suggests, but rather, we should always know and verify.
I'm not preaching this because "I know better."
Rather, it's because of an embarrassing evolution during a training class I had with Varg Freeborn a few years ago.
Already not a new shooter at the time I took his class, I yet somehow still managed to step up to the line with a weapon that was *_not_* ready for the drill.
Why did that happen? It's because I became complacent and relied on what was supposed to be "Hot Range" rules, and simply assumed that the weapon was indeed loaded due to the circumstances of place and time (i.e. on a handgun training range). Instead, as a shooter, I should have minded - knew, and verified if-necessary - the condition of my weapon.
This is very easily reasoned-through via the old adage of "if the gun isn't in your hands, you don't know what condition it is in." This is the reason why we physically chamber-check and render-safe a weapon - even if we *know* it to be unloaded because the person handing it to us had just checked it to be unloaded and clear - as soon as it has been passed to our hands from another's. Similarly, this is why any gun which has not been under our direct control gets physically safety-checked as soon as our hands are on it.
It's not to look cool in the gun store. It's not about this action being convention in our community (which, of-course, it is). It's about actually knowing that the gun is in a certain physical state.
Good post, David N.
Negligent Discharge
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That's the next two of the canonical Four.
Muzzle discipline: aka never letting the muzzle of the weapon cross something that you're not willing to destroy and take full responsibility for; also known as the "flagging/muzzling/laser" rule.
Trigger finger awareness: aka keep your finger off the trigger until you have made the decision to shoot. This, while usually known as the "finger off the trigger until your sights are on target" rule, I also like the more refined version which I use, as it takes into consideration the need to either shoot from retention or to employ other means of unsighted shooting.
Of these two, Ken Hackathorn specifically notes that in the real world, one or the other of these rules is sometimes unintentionally - or even intentionally - abridged ( http://soldiersystems.net/2015/05/16/gunfighter-moment-ken-hackathorn-10/ ). And of these two, he gives considerably more weight to the latter - that of trigger finger awareness - specifically because of the instances where, righteously, a shooter (i.e. defensive shooter in fear for his life or a police officer who is holding her threat at-bay) may need to point the weapon at another person.
Similarly, Hackathorn warns that while one or the other of these two rules may be abridged under the stresses and circumstances of the real world, to come afoul of BOTH of these rules at the same time is to instantly court disaster:
^ In this video, we can see that the officer to the left of the screen has her finger on the gun's trigger.
There are other videos of similar incidents where the officer's trigger finger "dances" between a proper index along the frame/slide/ejection-port to and from the trigger face: a phenomenon called "trigger path affirmation," which is a response induced by stress - where the shooter "wants to know where the trigger is." This type of response, seen in either dash/body-cam videos of actual events or via training footage, is indicative of lack of sufficient stress inoculation in training.
Nevertheless, Bassbob, I completely agree.
These rules are indeed all firearms handling safety rules.
But they can be applied dynamically just as they can be applied in the context of the gun-shop counter or when one's sitting in one's living room, getting ready to break-down a weapon for cleaning.
As Travis Haley loved to say in his various training videos via Magpul Dynamics and Panteao Productions, these are "life safety rules," and they follow each of us shooters wherever we go.
I teach my kids these same rules.That's the next two of the canonical Four.
Muzzle discipline: aka never letting the muzzle of the weapon cross something that you're not willing to destroy and take full responsibility for; also known as the "flagging/muzzling/laser" rule.
Trigger finger awareness: aka keep your finger off the trigger until you have made the decision to shoot. This, while usually known as the "finger off the trigger until your sights are on target" rule, I also like the more refined version which I use, as it takes into consideration the need to either shoot from retention or to employ other means of unsighted shooting.
Of these two, Ken Hackathorn specifically notes that in the real world, one or the other of these rules is sometimes unintentionally - or even intentionally - abridged ( http://soldiersystems.net/2015/05/16/gunfighter-moment-ken-hackathorn-10/ ). And of these two, he gives considerably more weight to the latter - that of trigger finger awareness - specifically because of the instances where, righteously, a shooter (i.e. defensive shooter in fear for his life or a police officer who is holding her threat at-bay) may need to point the weapon at another person.
Similarly, Hackathorn warns that while one or the other of these two rules may be abridged under the stresses and circumstances of the real world, to come afoul of BOTH of these rules at the same time is to instantly court disaster:
^ In this video, we can see that the officer to the left of the screen has her finger on the gun's trigger.
There are other videos of similar incidents where the officer's trigger finger "dances" between a proper index along the frame/slide/ejection-port to and from the trigger face: a phenomenon called "trigger path affirmation," which is a response induced by stress - where the shooter "wants to know where the trigger is." This type of response, seen in either dash/body-cam videos of actual events or via training footage, is indicative of lack of sufficient stress inoculation in training.
Nevertheless, Bassbob, I completely agree.
These rules are indeed all firearms handling safety rules.
But they can be applied dynamically just as they can be applied in the context of the gun-shop counter or when one's sitting in one's living room, getting ready to break-down a weapon for cleaning.
As Travis Haley loved to say in his various training videos via Magpul Dynamics and Panteao Productions, these are "life safety rules," and they follow each of us shooters wherever we go.
Classified
Professional
This is one we missed
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Open Carry Black Lives Matter Protestor Has Negligent Discharge, Shoots Himself in the Foot
◀Previous Post Next Post▶ BLM Soyboy has a negligent discharge when flashing his firearm around Police pic.twitter.com/4aFl0evkqs — I,Hypocrite (@lporiginalg) June 29, 2020 We missed this when it happened last week. This video was from a protest that took place in Florissant, Missouri (a...
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ghosttwofive
Custom
I've never had an AD, but I came home from the range just about six months ago after lining up a new optic on My Colt M4. I always function check it before I clean it in this order: Make sure there's no mag in it, charge it to make sure there's not one in the chamber, then pull the trigger to disengage the firing pin. So I check and confirm there isn't a mag, then charge the weapon and out pops a live round from the chamber. I just sat there looking at it on the floor as it spun away....dumbfounded with myself. An icy ball formed in my chest thinking about what would have happened had I pulled the trigger before checking the chamber, but that's the reason I check the weapon in that order. Firearms safety has always been paramount to me, drilled into me by my grandfather an my dad since age 5. I ALWAYS know the status of my firearms. Had I not checked the chamber first, I would have fired a round thru the floor of my laundry room which is my room I clean my firearms in, as it was a .223 round there's no telling where the damn round would have ended up. It scared the crap out of me and re-iterated why eternal vigilance is the price of safety when it comes to firearms.
TEXASforLIFE
Ronin
Another way would be too put safety on, take out mag then pull the pivot pin. Then pull the chargehandle and remove with the bcg in 1 stroke. Next place a finger on the hammer, take safety off and then pull the trigger and ease the hammer tension off.
Keystone19250
SAINT
Here is something not discussed, some of us have had to send there firearms in for service and we all know FedEx is the carrier for that process. When I worked for Mossberg I can’t count the number of firearms that are returned for service fully loaded with some even having a round in the chamber. Can you imagine pulling a gun out of the box needing repair and find it loaded for bear.
Keystone19250
SAINT
And that’s important to note, it means you were affected to a point that most likely you won’t make the same mistake and just maybe you’ll get the chance to possibly see someone about to make that same mistake and stop him/her before tragedy strikes. I know I’ll never forget that day in the packing department when the inspector pulled that trigger and sent a round through the wall. Luckily it was pointed for the most part up since the test range was on the other side of the wall, a room filled with about 15 employees. I remember running to the sound of the shot while the 120 employees in my packing department were hitting the floor or running for cover, when I took the rifle from the inspector “who was visibly shaking”
I opened the bolt to see two more rounds still in the box magazine. Something I will NEVER forget.
Wow!
I have about 12 years of shooting experience with skeet and dove gunning. Just got my CC too. Only 22. I am no stranger to the proper way of manipulating a handgun but get a load of this. I sent my Glock off to get modded. Slide cuts and optic cuts. I have a relationship with the gunsmith and he always does me favors. He sent me off on my way with a magazine full of critical duty 135 +p which is better than the Speer gold dot I had. Nice little gift normally but it was never communicated that he did that. I dropped it off with a magazine with no ammunition so there is no way it could have been fired. I was dry firing in my drive way because I have a big chunk of private property and I have privacy and I sent a bullet right through my driver side seat. It is my fault as I should have deemed it clear and to be clear I never would have aimed it at anything living. Just setup my own training ground on my driveway and was acting as if I was clearing out my car. That’s right when it went through the ass cushion and ended up hitting the wire harness below the seat cushion. I completely let it slip past my mind that I would of needed to check the chamber as I dropped it off empty and expected it back empty. In the end I see my fault and I should have done better but yeah. Pretty shameful but I found the humor on it. Stupid of me yes but I’m glad that it was my first ever ND/AD in all this time and will be my last. No matter what. * I was alone and live alone so no one was around me. I wouldn’t train with others around me. Hope y’all enjoy reading haha.
Car was a 2018 jeep renegade.
Car was a 2018 jeep renegade.
Attachments
Bassbob
Emissary
I'm not sure I would take the Hornady over Gold Dot.
Definitely should have made sure the gun was unloaded before attempting to dry fire. Not to sound mean, but I think it's a good thing it's going to cost you something. Stupid should hurt. You learn faster that way. Don't do that no more. You could kill someone.
Bassbob
Emissary
Also I object to this poll. The options are yes and not yet. That is assuming it will happen to everyone eventually. Which is frankly BS. It's like that dumbass that put his hand over the mortar tube in that other thread. There are just some things that should absolutely, positively never be taken for granted. It's not hard not to have a negligent discharge. In fact it's quite simple. Never put your finger on the trigger unless you are ready to shoot or know FOR A FACT the gun, including the chamber is empty. Period. It's not like you have to remember a bunch of ****. Just remember YOUR FINGER.
Lock n' Load
Custom
I've never had one and hope I never do. By concentrating first on all gun safety rules when handling any firearm, I will endeavor to lessen the odds of this occurring by paying strict attention to what I'm doing at all times.
Oh I definitely learned and I’ve looked thousands of times probably if I were to count every time I’ve looked to see if any chamber on the guns I own are clear. I just was simply distracted. But I wouldn’t kill anyone because I don’t train around others unless they’re a distance behind me where I won’t be training. And won’t be aiming. I also have paranoia almost when firearms are out around others when not in a place where it’s normal like the range or classes I’d attend. I’ve seen some really BAD ND/ADs. I admit my fault and it was honestly just me being too comfortable rather than stupidity. The lesson to that moment was completely about being too comfortable. It’s instinct for me to check the chamber on everything when I have them out in general. But yeah, the lesson I took from it is: never get comfortable! (even if I knew I dropped it off empty and expected it back empty). I was Itching to try out the new polished APEX trigger. Practicing the draw and quick engagement of *said bad guys* could one day save your life. Training is and will always be your friend when you least expect it ya know. I have a few rules I set for myself and the only time I ever would use firearms around others in that fashion are at training classes. But yeah it’s like a couple
Hundred for the harness. Easy install though.
Bassbob
Emissary
Yeah, you'll find that most of us here regularly take courses and train pretty much constantly. I'm sure every person that accidentally killed their buddy thought they would never do it either. How many times you have "Cleared" your weapon is irrelevant, the fact is you damn sure didn't clear it this time.
Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk, this is just one of those things I don't understand. It's a simple and foolproof way to avoid ND. Distraction, complacence and carelessness are absolutely unacceptable if you have a gun on your person. Period. Call it what you want, but it absolutely was stupid. And dangerous.
Keystone19250
SAINT
@CHCZ A very hard lesson learned, it’s fortunate you didn’t shoot yourself. We are all here to answer each other’s questions as well as offer support to those that have concerns. Again you learned a valuable lesson to make sure;
AT ALL TIMES that your gun is unloaded and has an empty chamber when you’re doing what you did. Perhaps doing that in the car was where you lost focus?
I’m sure you will reflect on that for a long time. Be safe.
AT ALL TIMES that your gun is unloaded and has an empty chamber when you’re doing what you did. Perhaps doing that in the car was where you lost focus?
I’m sure you will reflect on that for a long time. Be safe.
HansGruber
Ronin
One of the reasons I always clear a weapon that isn’t on my person (at least the chamber is empty—I often leave a loaded magazine in a weapon) is because once upon a time I picked up a revolver out of the safe and was going to dry fire it...and right before I dropped the hammer, I saw brass in the cylinder. I very carefully lowered the hammer, and decided to change my ways.
Seemed I had been in a hurry after carrying it, and just put it back in the safe figuring I would clear it later. Now, if I always clear the chamber of an auto, and open the cylinder of a revolver as soon as it comes off me—no exceptions.
Seemed I had been in a hurry after carrying it, and just put it back in the safe figuring I would clear it later. Now, if I always clear the chamber of an auto, and open the cylinder of a revolver as soon as it comes off me—no exceptions.
I am so scarred by other family members NDs, that I NEVER pull the trigger unless I am at the range (live-fire or dry-fire). Both NDs mentioned were a result of attempts to clear the weapon and then pulling the trigger to verify the status.