3 Myths About Handgun Stopping Power

[ECS686]

At least here (training wise) it's always "until the THREAT has stopped" , anyone who echos the mentality that they need to shoot to kill or has the mentality that a dead aggressor is better than a living one is going to have a very bad time defending themselves in court for a self defense case as they will pick apart that character if that mentality is posted online. Because if you keep shooting after the threat has stopped, they will say you were no longer in "imminent danger" after that Nth shot, and would no longer be a self defense case.

I feel like people need to recognize they're shooting to "stop a threat", not shooting to warn, to wound, to kill, but to "stop a threat" however far the aggressor keeps being a threat.

The Bias Bit : I also live in a state where we have a duty to retreat, not a stand your ground state, there's no castle doctrine here. We're only supposed to fire if we're in immediate danger and have no ability to retreat. We're also not allowed to use deadly force to protect property (and personally I don't feel like any property is worth someone's life).

Those folks that say that have never been mirandized and talk bold on cases like Zimmerman or Rittenhouse when they weren’t the ones sitting in jail til bonded out or going through a trial and not knowing til the not guilty verdict came down. Little different tjan after the fact or comfort if their own house with no skin to loose themselves.

Why I cringe when the bold britches say “I’d rather be judged by 13 than carried by 6” dude you have absolutely zero use how stressful the aftermath of even a righteous shooting/use of force can be it’s investigated as a homicide or attempted and you better meet the requirements of subsection a,b or c to be “justified”

 

[KBlessing]

Those folks that say that have never been mirandized and talk bold on cases like Zimmerman or Rittenhouse when they weren’t the ones sitting in jail til bonded out or going through a trial and not knowing til the not guilty verdict came down. Little different tjan after the fact or comfort if their own house with no skin to loose themselves.

Why I cringe when the bold britches say “I’d rather be judged by 13 than carried by 6” dude you have absolutely zero use how stressful the aftermath of even a righteous shooting/use of force can be it’s investigated as a homicide or attempted and you better meet the requirements of subsection a,b or c to be “justified”

Indeed just pointing out what you say will and can be used against you. You do what you need to do to protect yourself and family, but you will absolutely be treated like a criminal in the aftermath no matter what. Don't let social media be your downfall if something like that happens.

PS: there is a bit of a difference of going after someone who is retreating than stopping a charging threat (just saying).

 

[1canvas]

Technically is stopped, but forever in that case. (Also, I recall that dirtbag lawyers usually can get their criminal clients more for injury than “wrongful” death…)

My point is death can follow an encounter much later.

 

[1canvas]

Those folks that say that have never been mirandized and talk bold on cases like Zimmerman or Rittenhouse when they weren’t the ones sitting in jail til bonded out or going through a trial and not knowing til the not guilty verdict came down. Little different tjan after the fact or comfort if their own house with no skin to loose themselves.

Why I cringe when the bold britches say “I’d rather be judged by 13 than carried by 6” dude you have absolutely zero use how stressful the aftermath of even a righteous shooting/use of force can be it’s investigated as a homicide or attempted and you better meet the requirements of subsection a,b or c to be “justified”

Your post brings to mind my experience many years ago when CCW became legal. I was relieved to know I had a legal option to defend myself with a firearm against someone with a firearm, no more living in fear. Many years later with reliable information about the process and how long the process can go while you are sitting in jail and loosing everything you own because of no income was shocking, fear is back .
For me morally, and now legally, the bar is very high before I would ever draw a firearm. Maybe that is the intent of the legal process, I just hope that doesn’t get me killed one day .

 

[KBlessing]

Your post brings to mind my experience many years ago when CCW became legal. I was relieved to know I had a legal option to defend myself with a firearm against someone with a firearm, no more living in fear. Many years later with reliable information about the process and how long the process can go while you are sitting in jail and loosing everything you own because of no income was shocking, fear is back .
For me morally, and now legally, the bar is very high before I would ever draw a firearm. Maybe that is the intent of the legal process, I just hope that doesn’t get me killed one day .

And that's why there is also such a huge market on various insurances like attorneys on retainer etc. They sell on exactly that kind of fear, not just from the criminal process but civil suits from either them or their estate.

 

[LDB]

Wait, wait.. what happens if you only hit them in the arm with the buckshot cause you haven’t fired the shotgun in years but hit center mass with a pistol ?

Well that's just going to blow their arm clean off and across the room so further aggression will be one-armed. I know this. Joe Biden confirmed it with his double barrel wisdom.

 

[Lab4Us]

It’s a false sense of proficiency, However most 8 ring or even outer 9 are not anatomical correct and offer no true disabling hit no matter the handgun caliber.

Tactical Dude target for the win!

 

[KBlessing]

Tactical Dude target for the win!

View attachment 100399

Seems like a lot of empty space compared to what other examples I've seen but still going for center mass there.

These are some others I've seen.

 

[ECS686]

Tactical Dude target for the win!

View attachment 100399

While somewhat improved and we all see them. Unfortunately only a few agencies out of some thing line 18,000 is anything with reduced/realistic vital scoring targets outside maybe specialty teams.

Below is the Indjana Law Enforcement Target for the academy and about 50% of agencies use this however probably more than 50% is a simple B27 and call all 8 ring and in as full value which is a lot wider than the 2 center box ILEA target. ILEA at least had a circle in the high thoracic to index in.

But if I was in charge I would require anything outside the smaller box not full value

 

[Lab4Us]

Seems like a lot of empty space compared to what other examples I've seen but still going for center mass there.

These are some others I've seen.

View attachment 100400

If you notice, all three of your targets with chest squares are in the exact same spot as the chest square on the one I posted. Just a bit more subdued.

 

[KBlessing]

If you notice, all three of your targets with chest squares are in the exact same spot as the chest square on the one I posted. Just a bit more subdued.

Yea I had to look back over. I think the lack of lines just makes the chest seem bigger when not imagining the separation of arms etc.

 

[Lab4Us]

While somewhat improved and we all see them. Unfortunately only a few agencies out of some thing line 18,000 is anything with reduced/realistic vital scoring targets outside maybe specialty teams.

Below is the Indjana Law Enforcement Target for the academy and about 50% of agencies use this however probably more than 50% is a simple B27 and call all 8 ring and in as full value which is a lot wider than the 2 center box ILEA target. ILEA at least had a circle in the high thoracic to index in.

But if I was in charge I would require anything outside the smaller box not full value

Concur. Really shouldn’t miss much outside that smaller box on stationary target (I’m assuming 15 yards or closer). I’m sure I’d miss some at 15 yards (old eyes, unless allowed to use optic), but 10 and closer, I’m comfortable. But for sure, those out in pubic pulling triggers should be able to do that on a stationary range.

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke_]

When I first started educating myself about CCW and calibers I was open minded. Read articles and talked with people across the industry including my brother who has been FFL for over 30years and reloads just about everything handgun and rifle him being an expert on powder burn rates and ballistic curves. Two articles I read stuck out: 1st. was a Army SGT who carried a Glock21 SF on multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan: His thoughts were that a lot of people worry about "over penetration" and that on any over penetration he had the bullet was always found on the ground near the target, he used a .45 ACP with Corbon Ammo. 2nd was 20-year prison guard who stated he talked with a lot of prisoners who had been shot multiple times with 9mm, but not once did he ever talk with a prisoner who had been shot with a .45! Both those stuck with me. Now my brother said as the article did, if you don't carry because your gun seems to big or heavy then you're not ready (hence the overkill on capacity). If you don't practice to the point of mechanical precision then again you're not ready. My thoughts: A. Shot placement is #1, so I practice two-shot sequences. B. Confidence in your firearm and execution that you will win. My CCW is the Springfield XDE .45 7+1 with a rail mounted Olight Baldr S laser/light combo and a backup 7-round magazine. I don't go looking for trouble, but if it comes for me I will not be a victim. I'm not John Wick who wastes more rounds than anyone I have seen in Hollywood!

 

[KBlessing]

Concur. Really shouldn’t miss much outside that smaller box on stationary target (I’m assuming 15 yards or closer). I’m sure I’d miss some at 15 yards (old eyes, unless allowed to use optic), but 10 and closer, I’m comfortable. But for sure, those out in pubic pulling triggers should be able to do that on a stationary range.

I could be wrong, but I thought most self defense incidents tend to happen around 10-15 feet, not 45+ feet (ie 15 yards).

In that respect if you train enough with raising and firing within acceptable accuracy margin at 15 feet , in theory would just be muscle memory while keeping focus on target.

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke_]

Sadly I fear the problem today is many folks, including a fair number of LEO’s, do NOT practice enough to insure they can hit what they’re shooting at, relying instead on the 15, 20 or more rounds they have in each magazine rather than in shooting skill. And that completely ignores where all the “misses” go-and they ALL go somewhere, into property or, in the worst case, other people. I find the whole “spray and pray” concept very concerning, yet that is “the” thing for a lot of folks these days. In the real world the first round or two ON Target, will typically resolve the issue. One hit will beat 20 misses, every, single, time.

Agreed! If you need to carry 15+ rounds you are in the wrong place to begin with and should rethink your lifestyle. Now, at the range, yes reloading magazines sucks!

 

[ECS686]

Concur. Really shouldn’t miss much outside that smaller box on stationary target (I’m assuming 15 yards or closer). I’m sure I’d miss some at 15 yards (old eyes, unless allowed to use optic), but 10 and closer, I’m comfortable. But for sure, those out in pubic pulling triggers should be able to do that on a stationary range.

Indiana changed from a 50 yard 60 round wual in 1999 to a 25 yard 8 round wual (they just dropped the 12 round 50 yard stage but kept it 6 shot revolver neutral)

Thatlast revamp was 2018 and it is a 50 round qual out to 25 yards each stage is 10 rounds with 5 rounds per mag and required reload on the time dial time constraints

You use to have to fire 3 perfect scores to be an instructor yjen they altered that a few years ago and 96 is good enough.

 

[KBlessing]

Agreed! If you need to carry 15+ rounds you are in the wrong place to begin with and should rethink your lifestyle. Now, at the range, yes reloading magazines sucks!

Especially at our public (free) DNR ranges. 6 rounds max per magazine, only 1 shot fired per 3 seconds, no human shaped targets. In those cases you get extra mags if you want to keep using those.

 

[ECS686]

I could be wrong, but I thought most self defense incidents tend to happen around 10-15 feet, not 45+ feet (ie 15 yards).

In that respect if you train enough with raising and firing within acceptable accuracy margin at 15 feet , in theory would just be muscle memory while keeping focus on target.

Tom Givens has probably the best data base through Rangemaster (I am a Rangemaster certified Advanced instructor) and in his civilian data base (of Rangemaster students) of 70 some shootings (67 wins 3 lost to forfeit as they didn’t have a gun and were executed) his average js just over 7 yards. So that 3,3,3 is sort of obsolete

LE is somewhat mixed as they are often taking folks into custody whem it turns deadly. Then you have the resounding officers to things in highways with rifles which are often 20 yards or more!

 

[KBlessing]

Tom Guvens has probably the best data base through Rangemaster (I am a Tangemaster certified Afvanced instructor) and in his civilian data base (of Rangemaster students) of 70 some shootings (67 wins 3 lost to forfeit as they didn’t have a gun and were executed) his average js just over 7 yards. So that 3,3,3 is sort of obsolete

LE is somewhat mixed as they are often taking folks into custody whem it turns deadly. Then you have the resounding officers to things in highways with rifles which are often 20 yards or more!

I need to find it but it was something based off recent FBI data shown in the cpl courses, where they used to say 20-30 feet but now say 15 feet and less for most incidents that you have to be prepared to react to.

 

[Lab4Us]

Now, at the range, yes reloading magazines sucks!

That’s why I own more magazines than I will ever need. Most guns I have enough to preload 150 rounds, and a couple over 200 preloaded. Makes my hour or so at the range much more efficient!