3 Myths About Handgun Stopping Power

[Biggfoot44]

Without reading the linked , or 2/3 of the thread , l already know how it will go .

V % - No Such Thing
W% - Literally Everything , caliber or load , is the same
X % - Debate down to 0.01 % of ( something ).

The later , further subdivided into :

Y% - Modern 9mm is the greatest thing since sliced bread , canned beer , and smokless powder , all combined .

Z% - Only brain dead transgenger midgets , with arthritis and cerebal palsy would ever use 9mm .

And nobody will change anyone's mind .

 

[Lab4Us]

I've seen plenty of cops shoot the nutz off a squirrel especially since 2003. I seen a cop take a single headshot from across a freeway while dodging cars. These ain't barnely fife cops anymore in a lot of cities. They are extremely well trained combat vets. Lotta fudd in here when it comes to cops not a shocker between the tin foil hate right and the idiot left in here/shrug.

LEO marksmanship has nothing to do with right or left. It’s a fact that departments do not put as much $$ into training as they used to (not their fault, budgets start at the County/City level). The logical conclusion to that is there are less well trained LEOs than there used to be (and most of those because they invest their own time/money into said training).

If you watched LEOs taking 100 yard shots, under stress, numerous distractions, with perfect accuracy, I’d have to believe they were with rifles, not Glocks. And even then, I’d have a hard time believing one shot, one hit (unless SWAT trained sniper with appropriate sniper rifle).

Combat vet does not equal weapons expert any more than LEO equals weapon expert. Like the rest of shooters, it takes continual time, money, and practice to maintain expert shooting skills - perishable skills that they are.

 

[CCJ]

Without reading the linked , or 2/3 of the thread , l already know how it will go .

V % - No Such Thing
W% - Literally Everything , caliber or load , is the same
X % - Debate down to 0.01 % of ( something ).

The later , further subdivided into :

Y% - Modern 9mm is the greatest thing since sliced bread , canned beer , and smokless powder , all combined .

Z% - Only brain dead transgenger midgets , with arthritis and cerebal palsy would ever use 9mm .

And nobody will change anyone's mind .

well, some will. There was a time when I would have never relied on a 9mm. But in recent years they have come a long way with ammunition... In all calibers. In the old days you had to live with the limitations. Because of the ammunition improvements the 9mm has become a much better performer than it was 20 years ago. I can tell you that I have had to re-evaluate the 9mm as a defensive weapon. It can be affective when paired with good ammunition. I have the embarrassing confession to make that I have a compact 9mm that finds its way into my waist band from time to time. I also have a 22Mag pocket revolver that I carry once in a while also.
I know that when I carry these I have to be aware of their limitations... and mine.
First, I have become a more proficient shooter over the years. I have a level of confidence that I can place the round where it counts, and the ability to perform a quick second shot.
Second, I have more faith in modern ammunition then I did with ammunition of the "old days".
Last, I fully understand that a one shot stop is greatly reduced with either of these smaller calibers. This will change the dynamics of an encounter. A risk I think I can overcome/minimize with skill and knowledge.
The 22mag has to be used more like a knife than a gun. You need to be very close and personal. Shot placement is critical or it is next to useless. You have to be willing to mix it up a little, be very aggressive, and quick. It is limiting, and rules out any response in some situations because it can make a bad situation worse as you are not going to stop an attacker at any range without a whole lot of luck.

 

[negolien]

LEO marksmanship has nothing to do with right or left. It’s a fact that departments do not put as much $$ into training as they used to (not their fault, budgets start at the County/City level). The logical conclusion to that is there are less well trained LEOs than there used to be (and most of those because they invest their own time/money into said training).

If you watched LEOs taking 100 yard shots, under stress, numerous distractions, with perfect accuracy, I’d have to believe they were with rifles, not Glocks. And even then, I’d have a hard time believing one shot, one hit (unless SWAT trained sniper with appropriate sniper rifle).

Combat vet does not equal weapons expert any more than LEO equals weapon expert. Like the rest of shooters, it takes continual time, money, and practice to maintain expert shooting skills - perishable skills that they are.

I'e seen great shots with handguns and rifles the rifle shot was after he ran around a building and ran 100 yards down a freeway too

 

[Mstrblaster]

Does anyone have a list of this ammunition that "meets FBI penetration standards"?

 

[ECS686]

Does anyone have a list of this ammunition that "meets FBI penetration standards"?

No list persay without digging but most of the major manufacturers standard offerings do in all service calibers 9mm 40, 45 and 10mm HST Gold Dot Critical Duty (not defense) FBI TX DPS KS Troopers and Marshals run Critical Duty NYPD and several others run Gold Dot Indianapolis run HST and are successfully stopping bad guys (Indianapolis have several Tom Givens Rangemaster Instructors involved in their Firearms program which isn’t the standard) LAPD DeV group and Border Patrol runs 147 9mm G2 Gold DOT and despite the low informational YouTube gel testers G2 is killing people all over the globe on a weekly basis

So pick the any of the rounds adopted by major agencies (you really can’t go wrong with Federal HST Gold Dot or Critical Duty)

 

[ECS686]

Ok a little if fripic but since we got into skne LE trainjng here is an article (fitting enough today) from Greg Ellifritz Weekend Knowledge dump.

You can look up the links but I added the main article and one link specifically on LE bs Civilians

Why You Should Use Visual Range Control

All applications of deadly force require visual awareness and decision making. Legacy firearms training and qualifications do not.

buildingshooters.com

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1461355715582975

 

[Lab4Us]

Does anyone have a list of this ammunition that "meets FBI penetration standards"?

You can find a ton of data here, along with a lot of explanations. It’s not the FBI, but I doubt the FBI will release all their testing data to the general public.

Handgun Self-Defense Ammunition - Ballistic Testing Data

Lucky Gunner tests more than 110 different 9mm, 45 ACP, 40 S&W and 380 ACP handgun self-defense ammunition loads in ballistic gel with analysis and video.

www.luckygunner.com

 

[ECS686]

You can find a ton of data here, along with a lot of explanations. It’s not the FBI, but I doubt the FBI will release all their testing data to the general public.

Handgun Self-Defense Ammunition - Ballistic Testing Data

Lucky Gunner tests more than 110 different 9mm, 45 ACP, 40 S&W and 380 ACP handgun self-defense ammunition loads in ballistic gel with analysis and video.

www.luckygunner.com

I will say Lucky Hunner is one of the better resources. That said if you go into YouTube the issue is most do a one and skne test and that is not a true indication on performance.

The best ones (the couple there are) do a 5 round test and don’t get to wrapped around about expansion. While beneficial it’s not the totally deciding factor as some have written off Critical Duty yet here is the FBI Marshals and Troopers of TX and KS and they are dropping bad guys more than not

I have hosted Chick Haggard and he is heavily involved in tactical Anatomy and gel testing (as he has been involved in bad things) and connected to a few Doctors that have worked Trama and autopsies so if you are really into it o suggest attending one of the few Tactical Anatomy summits.

Tactical Anatomy Summit

Join the Tactical Anatomy Summit for expert-led firearms training, focusing on tactical anatomy, live-fire drills, and survival skills for armed professionals and concealed carriers.

www.tacticalanatomysummit.com

 

[The Night Rider]

That’s why I ow n more magazines than I will ever need. Most guns I have enough to preload 150 rounds, and a couple over 200 preloaded. Makes my hour or so at the range much more efficient!

Rookie numbers bro, I've seen people over on Glock talk show duffle bags full of Glock magazines they bought at GSSF events.

 

[Lab4Us]

Rookie numbers bro, I've seen people over on Glock talk show duffle bags full of Glock magazines they bought at GSSF events.

. Difference is, I don’t do the gun games. Mine is just me at a range. Load ‘em up once, go fire them all once, then put them away (after wiping them down) until that gun comes up in rotation for range practice again.

 

[The Night Rider]

. Difference is, I don’t do the gun games. Mine is just me at a range. Load ‘em up once, go fire them all once, then put them away (after wiping them down) until that gun comes up in rotation for range practice again.

There is a gun magazine writer named Tamara Keel who has written articles about this.

One of the things that she said that I really relate to, her grandparents lived through the depression I'm going to guess as young adults and adults.

They. Saved E.V.E.R.Y.T.H.I.N.G.

The analogy that she made was that she apparently has footlockers full of AR-15 magazines still in the original wrappers in her house.

She said that the Clinton assault weapon band put a bug in her brain and every chance she gets to buy magazines she does.

My grandparents were raising kids during the Depression and they were the same way and they passed that on to my mom who passed it on to me. That means I don't waste anything it doesn't mean I have a gazillion magazines.

I think that on average I have at least 10 magazines for every single handgun I own. That's less than 100 magazines but it should last me for the rest of my life.

Full disclosure I have three guns that take Glock 19 magazines Google 26 and 2 Glock 19s. I have 5 Glock 26 magazines and I think I have 30 Glock 19 magazines. So I guess it's still 10 per gun.

If it was up to me I would have a hundred magazines for every single gun I owned.

That's probably why my wife is the CFO and I'm not

 

[ECS686]

There is a gun magazine writer named Tamara Keel who has written articles about this.

View attachment 100458

One of the things that she said that I really relate to, her grandparents lived through the depression I'm going to guess as young adults and adults.

They. Saved E.V.E.R.Y.T.H.I.N.G.

The analogy that she made was that she apparently has footlockers full of AR-15 magazines still in the original wrappers in her house.

She said that the Clinton assault weapon band put a bug in her brain and every chance she gets to buy magazines she does.

My grandparents were raising kids during the Depression and they were the same way and they passed that on to my mom who passed it on to me. That means I don't waste anything it doesn't mean I have a gazillion magazines.

I think that on average I have at least 10 magazines for every single handgun I own. That's less than 100 magazines but it should last me for the rest of my life.

Full disclosure I have three guns that take Glock 19 magazines Google 26 and 2 Glock 19s. I have 5 Glock 26 magazines and I think I have 30 Glock 19 magazines. So I guess it's still 10 per gun.

If it was up to me I would have a hundred magazines for every single gun I owned.

That's probably why my wife is the CFO and I'm not

I am actually friends with Tamera and have been to several classes with her as she lives around Indianapolis

Great lady

 

[Annihilator]

Just use this…..Joe Biden approved!

 

[The Night Rider]

I am actually friends with Tamera and have been to several classes with her as she lives around Indianapolis

Great lady

Ask her about her grandparents and the rubber bands

 

[KBlessing]

You can find a ton of data here, along with a lot of explanations. It’s not the FBI, but I doubt the FBI will release all their testing data to the general public.

Handgun Self-Defense Ammunition - Ballistic Testing Data

Lucky Gunner tests more than 110 different 9mm, 45 ACP, 40 S&W and 380 ACP handgun self-defense ammunition loads in ballistic gel with analysis and video.

www.luckygunner.com

Sheesh that Magtech (124gr bonded JHP, 26" average 5-shot penetration) seemed pretty useless for the purpose of being a hollow point...

 

[Lab4Us]

Sheesh that Magtech (124gr bonded JHP, 26" average 5-shot penetration) seemed pretty useless for the purpose of being a hollow point...

View attachment 100462

Some are like that. You also have to keep track of which guns were used for which calibers. I’ve long ago settled on Federal 124g HST for 9mm carry and Federal 230g HST for .45 carry, both in standard, not +P. These two are not the most expansion or most penetration, but I like I can use the Federal American FMJ in the same weights for practice and get the same FPS, so rounds will feel the same when firing, whether FMJ for practice or HST for carry. At least that’s my theory .

I’m not really recoil sensitive (except .357 magnum in J frame sized gun ) so I doubt I’d feel much difference if I practiced with 1050 FPS FMJ and then fired 1200 FPS carry ammo. One thing those differences do affect is point of aim, point of impact, especially with an optic. Hardly noticeable at 7 yards and closer, but the farther out I shoot, the more there is a difference (1050 FPS, 1200 FPS, same weight round).

 

[KBlessing]

Some are like that. You also have to keep track of which guns were used for which calibers. I’ve long ago settled on Federal 124g HST for 9mm carry and Federal 230g HST for .45 carry, both in standard, not +P. These two are not the most expansion or most penetration, but I like I can use the Federal American FMJ in the same weights for practice and get the same FPS, so rounds will feel the same when firing, whether FMJ for practice or HST for carry. At least that’s my theory .

I’m not really recoil sensitive (except .357 magnum in J frame sized gun ) so I doubt I’d feel much difference if I practiced with 1050 FPS FMJ and then fired 1200 FPS carry ammo. One thing those differences do affect is point of aim, point of impact, especially with an optic. Hardly noticeable at 7 yards and closer, but the farther out I shoot, the more there is a difference (1050 FPS, 1200 FPS, same weight round).

The HST also seems to remain pretty consistent on expansion and penetration depth regardless of the grain weight.

 

[ECS686]

Ask her about her grandparents and the rubber bands

I will yell at her in FB probably won’t see her til next summer

 

[negolien]

I'e seen great shots with handguns and rifles the rifle shot was after he ran around a building and ran 100 yards down a freeway too

I think people tend to forget too there are over 900,000 uniformed officers in the US. A HUGE number of them are combat veterans from the last 24 years of war. Sure you get the occasional acorn story but people just use crap like that to bash cops cause they are haters /shrug. They conveniently forget about the vast numbers of cops doin fabulous work. I can't find the freeway video. Cop musta run about 400 yards before engaging the bad guy across 8 lanes of freeway traffic with a single headshot while dodging cars lol.