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Anybody carrying a 5.7?

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PieterCoetzee

Operator
The 2025 New Years vehicle attack in New Orleans, got me thinking about how to stop a vehicle. Yes standard handguns will penetrate windshields and auto bodies; but will they penetrate and continue to the attacker? First anybody who tells you they know how a round will react to being shot through a windshield, hasnt shot enough windshields. There are simply too many variables. That being said no handgun round is better than 5.7 at penetration. Going beyond autos, 5.7 was designed to defeat armor. Soft armor is no problem. Plates are also defeat-able with the right ammo.

Do you need to defeat armor? Thats a personal question only you can answer; but even street criminals are wearing armor today. You can buy plates on eBay for under $300 and cobble together effective armor from Home Depot for under $50.

Yes plinking ammo is more expensive than 9mm BUT serious self defense 5.7x28 rounds are about the same price as 9mm self defense ammo. I have found the recoil to be noticeably less than 9mm almost to the point of nil. If its a negative 5.7 blast volume is higher; but thats only noticeable at the range

Best
Pieter
 
That whole defeating body armor is BS.

The 5.7 is a novelty round and even the US Secret Service got away from it rather quickly.

Even the MP7 in 4.6mm has been avoided like the plague….because like the 5.7 people found out they just don’t work that well and standard service calibers (9mm and 5.56) perform better

As far as stopping vehicles unless we routinely start carrying around 308’s not sure thwre is an answer
 
I think perhaps I didnt explain well enough. The 5.7 wont stop a vehicle (neither will a 308 by the way); but a 5.7 WILL defeat the windshield reliably unlike 9mm. As for not defeating body armor, it certainly WILL including plates when the right ammo is used. The plinking grade ammo is usually around 40 grains, that will NOT penetrate. However there are a few civilian loads in the 27 to 30 grain range that definitely DO penetrate with ease. Additionally there are specialty loads that excel. Black Fang Dragon, for one is especially good; but its expensive$$$.

The negative to 5.7 is the limited trauma it causes (think ice pick). On the plus side an ice pick through armor is better than no penetration that stops at the vest.

As far as why departments switch guns and ammo, well, there are LOTS of reasons beginning with budgets, qualification scores, and the whims of bosses and politicians. After the Miami Shootout the FBI switched to 10mm, then qualifications scores dropped so bad that they asked for a lighter load. That lighter load led to the 40 S&W. When PDs switched from 9mm to 40 S&W scores dropped again. When PDs switch back to 9mm qualifications improved. In the 90s Black Talon rounds were popular and used by many PDs. When the press started reporting ER doctors complaining about getting cut from the sharp edges on the Black Talon rounds many PDs switched to another round because of the bad press. Even Winchester rebranded the Black Talon from nickel cases and black bullets to brass cases and copper bullets, then calling them a new name. Saying that a department dropped a gun or cartridge because its bad isnt always good logic. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc: after before, therefore because; just because something happened doesnt necessarily mean what happened before is the reason.

Remember the 5.7 and 4.6 rounds and guns were designed specifically to defeat hard armor.

Beyond this we may just have to agree to disagree.

Best
Pieter
 
Hi,

I've got nothing to add other than I've been curious about 5.7 for a while. Getting rifle velocities out of a pistol is intriguing. I get free rentals at the range but it would still cost me a box of the range's ammo to try it out. One of these days. From what I've read there's not enough of an advantage over other calibers. It seems a niche self defense caliber at best but could be handy in competition. Other calibers are more versatile, IMHO. OK, I'll quit wasting your bandwidth. When I get around to trying a 5.7 rental, I'll be sure to post a range report.

Hey, @PieterCoetzee, have I welcomed you to the forum? If not, then pull up a keyboard and make yourself at home. See ya 'round. ;)


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 
5.7 is lethal enough, but armor piercing ammo for it is restricted. Nidal Hasan used a FN 5.7 to carry out the Ft Hood massacre of 14 in 2009. But it has not become a mainstream caliber, probably because most folks just don't see a need for it. 9mm, .40, 10mm, .357 Sig, and .45 will defeat barriers like windshields and car doors, especially with ammo like Hornady Critical Duty. I think the 5.7 is a caliber that is interesting but a niche caliber with a narrow following
 
There are civilian legal rounds that DO defeat armor. The sub 30gr rounds are very effective against armor. Black Fang rounds are expensive but defeat level 4 plates. Yes 9mm and the rest will penetrate windshields but what will they do after the glass. 5.7 is simply superior at penetration. Its not meant to open or expand. It was designed to punch holes. Against soft targets, conventional rounds do better. Once you have a barrier between you and the threat 5.7 comes into play. 5.7 is gaining popularity while 357 Sig, and 40SW, are waning
 
WHILE MOST IF NOT ALL HP ROUNDS WILL CAUSE EXPANSION AND STILL GO THROUGH A WINDSHIELD IT MAY NOT INCAPACITATE A PERSON REGARDLESS OF CARTRIDGE OR CALIBER IN HANDGUNS. THIS IS THE BETTER USE OF FMJ'S AS MOST PEOPLE DON'T CARE FOR THEM. WHEN I DID SOME TESTING ON A VEHICLE WITH A 629 44MAG 8.375" USING 180 AND 240 HP'S FROM AROUND 20-30 YARDS FROM A VEHICLE THE ROUNDS DID GO THROUGH THE DRIVER'S DOOR (THE DOOR I WAS FACING) AND EXIT THE PASSENGERS DOOR ON A FAIRLY STRAIGHT PATH. NOW WITH THE WINDSHIELD TEST IT WENT THOUGH THE WINDSHIELD, DRIVER'S SEAT AND EXITED THE FLOOR. I'D BET THE 10MM AND 357SIG WILL DO THE SAME! AS FAR AS ANY 9MM AND 5.7 CARTRIDGE (NOT JUST 5.7X28 OR 9X19) WILL DO THE SAME WITH HP'S OR FMJ'S AT THE SAME DISTANCE (BUT HAVEN'T TESTED FOR SURE. 45acp is weak and 40s/w could be lacking also.
 
TEXASforLIFE said:
WHILE MOST IF NOT ALL HP ROUNDS WILL CAUSE EXPANSION AND STILL GO THROUGH A WINDSHIELD IT MAY NOT INCAPACITATE A PERSON REGARDLESS OF CARTRIDGE OR CALIBER IN HANDGUNS. THIS IS THE BETTER USE OF FMJ'S AS MOST PEOPLE DON'T CARE FOR THEM. WHEN I DID SOME TESTING ON A VEHICLE WITH A 629 44MAG 8.375" USING 180 AND 240 HP'S FROM AROUND 20-30 YARDS FROM A VEHICLE THE ROUNDS DID GO THROUGH THE DRIVER'S DOOR (THE DOOR I WAS FACING) AND EXIT THE PASSENGERS DOOR ON A FAIRLY STRAIGHT PATH. NOW WITH THE WINDSHIELD TEST IT WENT THOUGH THE WINDSHIELD, DRIVER'S SEAT AND EXITED THE FLOOR. I'D BET THE 10MM AND 357SIG WILL DO THE SAME! AS FAR AS ANY 9MM AND 5.7 CARTRIDGE (NOT JUST 5.7X28 OR 9X19) WILL DO THE SAME WITH HP'S OR FMJ'S AT THE SAME DISTANCE (BUT HAVEN'T TESTED FOR SURE. 45acp is weak and 40s/w could be lacking also.
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You drankin or you gonna blame the cats again?
 
Blackmesa96 said:
My understanding is that the "good stuff" is restricted from the civilian market
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The original SS190 is restricted but there are civilian loads that will perform well on armor. Basicall any of the sub 30 grain rounds work. The heavier stuff (40+ grains) is only for plinking. Black Fang is particularly good

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Yes its an Ice Pick on unarmored flesh, no question; It shines against barriers and armor. But its also moving fast enough to create hydrostatic shock temporary wound channels like the 5.56. Black Dragon breaks into two pieces after penetrating armor and creates TWO wound channels.
 
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