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Be a “Good Witness” or possibly save a life?

KingDiamond

Operator
Founding Member
I just started a new thread on this, and I've gotten a few responses on it (one from someone in VA). Another mentioned that KY might be getting ready to pull the same. I agree that it is a "toe in the water", but it seems like more of jumping in with both feet.
 

southtex

Master Class
Founding Member
I know what I would like my answer to be but without a family member involved and the congested area I honestly don't know. My priorities have always been family, self, others and unless you have witnessed a gun being pointed at you or someone else IMO a person can't say how they would respond.
 

KLGunner

Moderator
Staff member
I know what I would like my answer to be but without a family member involved and the congested area I honestly don't know. My priorities have always been family, self, others and unless you have witnessed a gun being pointed at you or someone else IMO a person can't say how they would respond.
Your absolutely right unless you in the situation you can only speculate. But it is a good mind exercise.
 

SimonRL

Alpha
Saw a video on this scenario. Are you a sheep or a sheepdog? Me? Sheepdog.
How many sheepdogs do you see freelancing it? There's always a shepherd directing the sheepdogs. Analog thinking like that is broken thinking. Everyone has to make their own decision on a situation like this, but it's offensive to call people sheep just because they didn't go full John Wick.
 

Annihilator

Ronin
Founding Member
Personally, I would just mind my own business, unless, there is gun fire involved. I would not hesitate if it was my family members, but with total strangers, I would pass, unless it’s a shooting scenario. With today’s laws, you get into trouble by just defending yourself or family, you got to remember one thing, just because you are a CCW holder, you are not law enforcement period. Just my opinion.
 

BET7

Professional
Founding Member
How many sheepdogs do you see freelancing it? There's always a shepherd directing the sheepdogs. Analog thinking like that is broken thinking. Everyone has to make their own decision on a situation like this, but it's offensive to call people sheep just because they didn't go full John Wick.
I can't speak for APPilot, but he may be referring to author Lt. Col. Dave Grosman's (Books: "On Killing" "On Combat", etc.) terminology on the three types of people concerning self defense etc. I saw Mr. Grossman interviewed by Rob Pincus of Personal Defense Network (PDN. Link below). Grossman wasn't using the term "Sheep" derogatory, just to identify people that didn't want to carry firearms, or were to young or disabled to defend themselves, and thus depended on "Sheep Dogs" which were Police and armed citizens and the like, to protect them from the "Wolves" or criminal element. At least that's how I took APPilot post reply as.

 

APPilot

Operator
Founding Member
I can't speak for APPilot, but he may be referring to author Lt. Col. Dave Grosman's (Books: "On Killing" "On Combat", etc.) terminology on the three types of people concerning self defense etc. I saw Mr. Grossman interviewed by Rob Pincus of Personal Defense Network (PDN. Link below). Grossman wasn't using the term "Sheep" derogatory, just to identify people that didn't want to carry firearms, or were to young or disabled to defend themselves, and thus depended on "Sheep Dogs" which were Police and armed citizens and the like, to protect them from the "Wolves" or criminal element. At least that's how I took APPilot post reply as.

Thank you for the reference. That wasn’t what I was referencing, but it is accurate. My child is 11. My friends are older and not inclined/able to throw themselves into the fray. It was not intended as a derogatory comment. It’s about mindset and ability.
Shephard
Sheepdog
Sheep

I am responsible for the safety of the people who cannot defend themselves. I am a member of society who takes the responsibility that comes with that membership seriously. I am not a cop, nor a member of the military. I know my own limitations, but I try to be prepared to the best of my ability to be aware, have a plan and act accordingly.

In aviation we have all sorts of acronyms for emergency situations. This is one that I think is appropriate:

DECIDE Mode
Detect the fact that a change has occurred
Estimate the need to counter or react to the change
Choose a desired outcome for the success of the flight
Identify actions which would successfully control the change
Do the action necessary to adapt to the change
Evaluate the effect of the action

I would not ask a passenger to make the decision in an emergency. I am trained to evaluate and react with calm, cold, clear decision making when the crap hits the impeller blade. Sometimes literally. Ask me about loosing an engine over the gulf at 500 ft MSL. 😜

a thought exercise for sure, but do you walk into a building looking for exits? Get out of your car looking for threats? Steer your family, friends when walking into a restaurant? Sit at a restaurantso you can seen the exits and entrances? I try to. It’s taxing, but today necessary.

I hope that clarifies my point and intentions with the previous post?
 

KillerFord1977

Professional
Founding Member
Let’s say your in a Walmart at the register for check out and a couple registers down you see someone pull a gun on the cashier. You being a CCW holder do you react and pull yours or do you stand back and be a good witness?
Depends on what they are buying. I may need that item. Cashier may down him, and I get to buy the ammo, or I down the person, and buy the item. .22 he walks. 9mm, he goes down
 

ScottJ

Custom
Founding Member
"...do you walk into a building looking for exits? Get out of your car looking for threats? Steer your family, friends when walking into a restaurant? Sit at a restaurant so you can see the exits and entrances?..."

Um, yep. Been doing it for years, and yes, at times it is taxing. These days........I see the need to do it even more so.
 

KLGunner

Moderator
Staff member
Good food for thought guys. Remember this tread was posted specifically for that reason to get you thinking 🤔. @Annihilator had a good point I wanted to reiterate. Now a days you get in trouble for even defending yourself or your family. So it’s important to keep that in mind. @ScottJ also brought up a good point even tho it’s taxing to steer your family and friends or always be over observant. Days like we’re facing today it’s almost necessary to have 2-3 plans in your mind. In case something goes wrong. So knowing where your exits are and sitting with your back to a wall are your best options.
 

ScottJ

Custom
Founding Member
"...@ScottJ also brought up a good point even tho it’s taxing to steer your family and friends..."

Thanks, KL, I was quoting APPilot, so the credit goes to him 😊. However,with the number of restaurants/businesses closed these days, it does provide a [slightly temporary] break in the full-capacity observation duties. :)
 

APPilot

Operator
Founding Member
It’s interesting. You’d think that with the CCP virus things would be calmer. Ain’t the case.

the amount of energy spent now on SA is greater than ever. Driving which can be harrowing has become just nuts. 7:00am driving home from work, watch out for the multiple cars going 90 and weaving in and out of cars. Two cars sometimes three in a row....

going to the grocery store, I choose to be mask free for a number of reasons that can open a whole can of worms, watching out for the mask nazis, the Karen’s with mace and carts waiting to pounce....

waiting in line at a gas station, 6 feet apart, knowing that half or more in line are carrying, praying their calm and not inclined to go all John Wick...

wish I still lived in a town of 16 people.....

God Bless y’all. Good luck and be safe.
 

Peglegjoe

Custom
Founding Member
I disagree - closed businesses mean we have to be MORE vigilant because empty spaces can hold...what? When the business is not active, their space is dark, and empty, and inviting to the bad elements.

Of which, there are plenty these days.

As for terminology (sheep, sheepdog, shepherd), I think "sheep" is simply a term reflecting innocence. I run a live audio company - county fairs, bar gigs, wineries, weddings, etc. I consider myself either a sheepdog or a shepherd - I don't necessarily point my audience in a particular direction, but I definitely keep an eye on them (and on my bands). And I do so, in order that they CAN be innocent - simply come to the event, relax, and enjoy the show and the whole environment without having to worry about stuff.

While I do carry...I'll never shoot.

Shoot BACK? Absolutely.

My shows (audiences, bands, etc) may not be "family"...but they are, for the duration of that show, MINE. And I'm not selfish enough to run and hide unless I'M the specific target - I'll fight to protect ALL of them if I can. It's just how I'm wired. In a more open scenario (street corner, alleyway, convenience store), it would be a more case-by-case decision process for me...but for one of my shows? No decision needed, beyond "do I have a clear shot" and "what's my backdrop".
 

ScottJ

Custom
Founding Member
It’s interesting. You’d think that with the CCP virus things would be calmer. Ain’t the case.

the amount of energy spent now on SA is greater than ever. Driving which can be harrowing has become just nuts. 7:00am driving home from work, watch out for the multiple cars going 90 and weaving in and out of cars. Two cars sometimes three in a row....

going to the grocery store, I choose to be mask free for a number of reasons that can open a whole can of worms, watching out for the mask nazis, the Karen’s with mace and carts waiting to pounce....

waiting in line at a gas station, 6 feet apart, knowing that half or more in line are carrying, praying their calm and not inclined to go all John Wick...

wish I still lived in a town of 16 people.....

God Bless y’all. Good luck and be safe.
Reading some of the responses makes me glad I live in a fairly safe/tame location. Being ret'd I'm not on the road everyday......but when I am out and about, I still keep my head on a swivel, and attempt to observe everything going on in my immediate area, wherever I might be. Just because things might appear calm on the surface, there's always some nutjob (or multiple nutjobs) just wtg for his/her moment to act out. My immediate concern will always be for my family and myself. Everything is situational, and depends on where one is at any given time. My responses aren't directed at anyone in particular, just providing my pov. :)
 

BET7

Professional
Founding Member
Personally, I would just mind my own business, unless, there is gun fire involved. I would not hesitate if it was my family members, but with total strangers, I would pass, unless it’s a shooting scenario. With today’s laws, you get into trouble by just defending yourself or family, you got to remember one thing, just because you are a CCW holder, you are not law enforcement period. Just my opinion.
I agree about getting in trouble for just defending ones self. I came across this article of ridiculous lawsuits against those that were defending themselves while in their homes.

 
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