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Beyond the Gun: The need for less lethal options

Good article, and I've been on the lookout for an appropriate-sized quick to deploy, less-than-lethal, pepper spray/gel to carry. Still carrying the firearm, however, at 67yo, my days of rolling around on the ground are somewhat behind me these days. Plus, I still have people dependant upon me, as I'm raising 2 young grandsons on my own. I don't need to be spending any amount of time incarerated for using a firearm while the legal system goes through their steps of innocent/not innocent.
 
The problem from my perspective is twofold:

1. I've used it twice in real life serious social situations and it was ineffective;
2. Most of the time the speed and stealth of drawing and utilizing a firearm is imperative.

By the time one secures and uses the OC spray it is often too late to deal with an adversary who is younger, stronger, and determined to do you harm. It is even worse if they were drawing a knife or firearm, because then you are headed for the hospital or the morgue.

I do agree, we need truly effective non lethal weapons as an alternative. I just haven't seen one yet other than brass knuckles and/or blackjacks and they present their own set of legal problems.

It is worth noting that, in some states, having a concealed carry permit does not allow for tasers, stun guns, or even OC spray. In some areas, only LEOs are allowed to possess and carry these less lethal alternatives.
 
I'm sorry but, I'm having a hard time with the whole "less than lethal defense options" thing. It may be because I live in the Northern Rockies where the Grizzly population increase has caused increased human encounters. This has resulted in "animal rights advocates" whining about OC spray is a better deterrent than a firearm. I see a direct parallel in this article.

Like someone has already said, I'm too damn old to go toe to toe with an assailant or a Grizzly Bear. Frequent practice and training will create the mindset to carry and operate a firearm in social situations as well as in the forest.
 
I carry a small canister of Sabre Red Gel once in a while but not always. I used to carry it all the time after I became disabled and before we got concealed carry in my state . No not the same canister because they do have an expiration date. 🙂

The reason I use the gel is because I have COPD and I don't want the spray blowing back on me.
 
ChanceMcCall said:
The problem from my perspective is twofold:

1. I've used it twice in real life serious social situations and it was ineffective;
2. Most of the time the speed and stealth of drawing and utilizing a firearm is imperative.

By the time one secures and uses the OC spray it is often too late to deal with an adversary who is younger, stronger, and determined to do you harm. It is even worse if they were drawing a knife or firearm, because then you are headed for the hospital or the morgue.

I do agree, we need truly effective non lethal weapons as an alternative. I just haven't seen one yet other than brass knuckles and/or blackjacks and they present their own set of legal problems.

It is worth noting that, in some states, having a concealed carry permit does not allow for tasers, stun guns, or even OC spray. In some areas, only LEOs are allowed to possess and carry these less lethal alternatives.
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I suspect that perhaps you have not had to occasion to use OC enough to fairly weigh its effectiveness. You also did not state what type of formulation(SHU) you were using or type.. Gel, Foam, stream or Fog. You also did not state whether or not it was high pressure carrier or other.

I will say that OC is generally a good alternative to the risks associated with [hands on] and has quite a good track record in regards to its effectiveness. Certainly there are some conditions which may hamper its effectiveness like intoxication or psychosis. Additionally there are certain people who simply have a diminished reaction and some who may suffer a hyper reaction.
 
I don't know how many of you have actually been maced. I have. Of course different ones probably have differing levels of effectiveness, but I have to say that based on my experience there is no way I would rely on it. I could see using it in an attempt to avoid shooting someone, assuming the bad guy is a good 10' away from me and my pistol is already in my hand. Other than that, I don't know......
 
Bear spray and regular pepper spary are to diff things entirely.
I bear sprayed a charging dog while running as a young adult and the dogs week was ruined. Had to change my shorts, but the dog was stopped from biting me. Little blow back made my eyes sting as well, which leads to one being incapacitated along with the assailant
 
papa said:
I carry a small canister of Sabre Red Gel once in a while but not always. I used to carry it all the time after I became disabled and before we got concealed carry in my state . No not the same canister because they do have an expiration date. 🙂

The reason I use the gel is because I have COPD and I don't want the spray blowing back on me.
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cross contamination can sometimes be a real possibility no matter what type you use. Gel might be a little harder to result in a secondary/cross exposure but we are talking about conditions where "fighting" and up close hostilities might be involved. Badguys will often cup their eyes upon exposure and then fling, smear or wipe the chemical agent on themselves, on others or onto nearby surfaces.
 
Bassbob said:
I don't know how many of you have actually been maced. I have. Of course different ones probably have differing levels of effectiveness, but I have to say that based on my experience there is no way I would rely on it. I could see using it in an attempt to avoid shooting someone, assuming the bad guy is a good 10' away from me and my pistol is already in my hand. Other than that, I don't know......
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Everyone certainly has their opinions and I respect that. My experience in using OC occupationally vs violent offenders has yielded good results across the board. I am speaking of dozens upon dozens of applications over a period of many years and varying formulations of OC. I was certified in its use in the very late 80s or early 90s and have been exposed directly during training and secondarily during its use ( many times over). I wont claim to be an expert, but I have had the occasion to use the agent quite extensively over a couple of decades. I recall its effectiveness due to the fact that I had to document the results formally each and every time I used it and also had to detail methods of decontamination or instances of medical intervention.

Did it work well each and every time? No
Did it work well in the overwhelming majority of instances? Yes

I have had the occasion to use foam, ballistic streams and foggers. I have used it against solo violent offenders as well as in riotous situations involving large groups of people. OC is certainly not perfect but I will say that I have confidence in it as a method to help minimize the risk of injuries that often result from direct application of physical force.

as with anything, its probably a good idea to have a plan B and C.
 
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Agree with the article. I always have the gel variety on me and my hand is usually on it. There are times during the day I am in crowds of people. Less than lethal will always be an option for me.
 
KASHIRA-3 said:
Everyone certainly has their opinions and I respect that. My experience in using OC occupationally vs violent offenders has yielded good results across the board. I am speaking of dozens upon dozens of applications over a period of many years and varying formulations of OC. I was certified in its use in the very late 80s or early 90s and have been exposed directly during training and secondarily during its use ( many times over). I wont claim to be an expert, but I have had the occasion to use the agent quite extensively over a couple of decades. I recall its effectiveness due to the fact that I had to document the results formally each and every time I used it and also had to detail methods of decontamination or instances of medical intervention.

Did it work well each and every time? No
Did it work well in the overwhelming majority of instances? Yes

I have had the occasion to use foam, ballistic streams and foggers. I have used it against solo violent offenders as well as in riotous situations involving large groups of people. OC is certainly not perfect but I will say that I have confidence in it as a method to help minimize the risk of injuries that often result from direct application of physical force.
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Would you deploy it against an armed threat? Armed with a knife?
 
I carry POM OC spray as a possible alternative.
Hopefully, I will have the time to decide whether or not the firearm is the correct choice.
If there is no time to consider the situation, the firearm is the only choice.
The Bad Guy or Guys should not be surprised if there are loud noises and flashes of light.
 
I like the Kimber Pepper Blaster. Yes, it’s only 2 shots, but the stand-off capability is nice, it’s not effected by wind (unless it’s truly gale-force), and it works—used it on a dog while bicycling, and it most certainly wrecked its day.
 
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