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Can the NRA Be Saved, And Should We Care?

somorris

Custom
Founding Member
I am an NRA member and have been for a long time. I still believe the NRA is our best chance to fight the anti 2A crowd, and think it is really bad that the NRA is having these troubles right now. Divide and conquer is what is and has been used against the NRA and its membership. It works, and is working now. I don't disagree that we need a new Executive VP, but just walking away is not the way to make that happen. I like what some of the fairly new groups are doing, but I just don't believe they have the clout and organization to fend off the big money on the other side.
 

SimonRL

Master Class
I think people with bad intent are using the “remove current leadership" as a tool to crush the NRA by convincing us it's not worth joining until there's a major change but in the mean time the NRA is becoming weaker and will have less of a voice concerning our rights.

More members will save the NRA and those same members have a vote to remove the current bad leadership because without the membership voting for this it will never happen.

Don't be fooled by the plot to convince us the NRA isn't worth it as it will only weaken our rights in the long run.

Anti-gun politicians are still calling the NRA their biggest challenge and there's a reason why, so just think about it.

I personally do feel the current leadership needs to take a hike but I'm not willing to give up on the organization just like I wouldn't give up on our country because of the current leadership.

Just my thoughts!
I’m sorry but that’s the same rationale that battered women stay with their abuser. Yeah, I know they’re a bunch of money grubbing d-bags, but they are protecting the 2nd Ammendment. Well from where I stand the only thing they’re taking care of is themselves.

The NRA is busted and if it was any other organization that was not involved in supporting 2A they would get dropped like a hot potato. Maybe a bit more investment into alternate 2A support organizations would force the NRA to finally clean up its act. Just my two cents.
 

Bassbob

Professional
I've been a life member since I was 18 years old. It's patently ridiculous to doubt whether or not the NRA can be effective at it's stated goal. If it wasn't for the NRA you wouldn't be carrying a gun anywhere outside of your house and that's if you were lucky. Standing on your principles is all good and well, but if you miss the forest for the trees you're going to be standing on them with a rock in your hand for self defense. GOA and other organizations are great and I am happy seeing more 2A orgs popping up, but there isn't a politician in this country that's afraid of running afoul of it's membership. How many amicus briefs have they filed since their inception ? How many lawsuits have they won ? How many voters have they mobilized ?

I completely understood that 10mm was joking. And yeah no one ever seriously thought Trump was some staunch 2A guy. Hell, he isn't even a republican and that didn't stop him. He is a hell of a lot better than the dude in the White House right now though. And the term " Left" is subjective. You don't have to be a fan of Trump to be conservative. If you voted for Hillary or Biden your leftists ideals matter more to you than your constitutional rights do though.

Principles are funny things. And which ones people stand on are funny too. If you really were standing on your principles you wouldn't have voted for anyone currently holding any office in the US government, except possibly Rand Paul. So boycotting the NRA while voting for Mitch McConnell or Lindsay Graham or any politician strikes me as funny. Boycotting the NRA while shopping at WalMart or banking at BOA strikes me as funny. If you disregard your principles for cheap groceries, but not to retain your constitutional rights that strikes me as funny.
 

SimonRL

Master Class
As you righty point out principles are funny things and like everything else today far from black and white. There’s no question that the NRA has been a great advocate for many years, but the question of who they serve is out there and is not going away. It would be great if they stepped into the 21st century and elected leadership that more adequately represented its membership.

For anyone interested here’s a decent article on 2A organizations.
 

Bassbob

Professional
As you righty point out principles are funny things and like everything else today far from black and white. There’s no question that the NRA has been a great advocate for many years, but the question of who they serve is out there and is not going away. It would be great if they stepped into the 21st century and elected leadership that more adequately represented its membership.

For anyone interested here’s a decent article on 2A organizations.
As far as I know, that is not in dispute. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is short sighted, stupid and dangerous though. The NRA disappearing and us expecting these other groups to step in and adequately fill the role is wishful thinking at this point. It would be like outlawing internal combustion engines tomorrow. Yeah there are alternatives. They just aren't going to be viable as a widespread replacement for about another 20 years.
 

wmg1299

Custom
I've been a life member since I was 18 years old. It's patently ridiculous to doubt whether or not the NRA can be effective at it's stated goal. If it wasn't for the NRA you wouldn't be carrying a gun anywhere outside of your house and that's if you were lucky. Standing on your principles is all good and well, but if you miss the forest for the trees you're going to be standing on them with a rock in your hand for self defense. GOA and other organizations are great and I am happy seeing more 2A orgs popping up, but there isn't a politician in this country that's afraid of running afoul of it's membership. How many amicus briefs have they filed since their inception ? How many lawsuits have they won ? How many voters have they mobilized ?
I agree that the NRA has been highly effective in the past, but their recent record with lawsuits is not nearly as good as they would have their members believe. Many of the recent successful gun rights lawsuits have been brought by the Second Amendment Foundation (SAF) and the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF). Even small organizations like the Virginia Citizens' Defense League (VCDL) and other local organizations have filed some of the major suits. The NRA has developed a habit of submitting supporting briefs at the appellate stage of trials, then claiming success in an "NRA Supported" or "NRA Backed" lawsuit.

That is my biggest problem with the current NRA leadership. Alan Gottlieb of the SAF is a brilliant lawyer, and has brought effective suits against the government on a shoestring budget. The NRA receives significantly more funding, but appears to spend more on WLP's wardrobe and vacations than they do on filing lawsuits. Filing "Friend of the Court" briefs in the late stages of the trial process is significantly cheaper than working with plaintiffs to file an original suit.

As far as organizing members to strike fear in the hearts of politicians is concerned, most politicians are more concerned about angering "Gun Owners" than angering "NRA Members". The NRA has become so toxic in today's media culture that a politician risks much more backlash for supporting the NRA than coming out in support of "law-abiding gun owners".

I have been an NRA member for years, and would love nothing more than to whole-heartedly support the NRA again. Unfortunately, they have been relying more on name recognition for the past few years than on actual accomplishments. While name recognition can be a very powerful tool, it looses it's effectiveness when someone like WLP keeps tarnishing the name. I don't expect anyone to take my word for it, but if you check NRA press releases to see how often they mention "NRA Backed" lawsuits versus how many times they report that the NRA ILA has actually filed a lawsuit, you will start to see my point.
 

BobM

Professional
I agree that the NRA has been highly effective in the past, but their recent record with lawsuits is not nearly as good as they would have their members believe. Many of the recent successful gun rights lawsuits have been brought by the Second Amendment Foundation (SAF) and the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF). Even small organizations like the Virginia Citizens' Defense League (VCDL) and other local organizations have filed some of the major suits. The NRA has developed a habit of submitting supporting briefs at the appellate stage of trials, then claiming success in an "NRA Supported" or "NRA Backed" lawsuit.

That is my biggest problem with the current NRA leadership. Alan Gottlieb of the SAF is a brilliant lawyer, and has brought effective suits against the government on a shoestring budget. The NRA receives significantly more funding, but appears to spend more on WLP's wardrobe and vacations than they do on filing lawsuits. Filing "Friend of the Court" briefs in the late stages of the trial process is significantly cheaper than working with plaintiffs to file an original suit.

As far as organizing members to strike fear in the hearts of politicians is concerned, most politicians are more concerned about angering "Gun Owners" than angering "NRA Members". The NRA has become so toxic in today's media culture that a politician risks much more backlash for supporting the NRA than coming out in support of "law-abiding gun owners".

I have been an NRA member for years, and would love nothing more than to whole-heartedly support the NRA again. Unfortunately, they have been relying more on name recognition for the past few years than on actual accomplishments. While name recognition can be a very powerful tool, it looses it's effectiveness when someone like WLP keeps tarnishing the name. I don't expect anyone to take my word for it, but if you check NRA press releases to see how often they mention "NRA Backed" lawsuits versus how many times they report that the NRA ILA has actually filed a lawsuit, you will start to see my point.
Hopefully, after relocation to a less restrictive state and very possibly good executive reorganization/housecleaning though bankruptcy, NRA can spread it's wings and do what it was meant to do and was doing in the past? Would be terrible to see NRA fade away into history and see all the good it's done over years just be proverbially flushed away down the drain. Good intentions are many in, at and with quite a few people and places. But, for many, it's a waiting game right now during bankruptcy proceedings conclude. Lot of gray areas right now. Many things could easily go away if NRA does.
 

Annihilator

SAINT
Founding Member
Ok, so if this new guy “the examiner” takes control of the NRA, what happens like it was said the NRA might not be around for a bit, what happens to all the memberships, does it mean the members are gone, what happens to all the donations that were given, just curious, to me, doesn’t sound good filing bankruptcy to move the organization to Texas....sounds hinky to me, but that’s me.
 

jumpinjoe

Professional
I think what happened is the organization filed for 'Chapter 11' bankruptcy, which as I understand was to basically get them out from under any debt obligations to the state of New York while they reorganize financially .... and maybe some creditors other than state. It gives them a clean slate to basically start over (reorganize) in another location.

Memberships and finances, including any contributions are secure as if it never happened. It's just a legal way of restructuring the financials including indebtedness.
 

TidalWave

Master Class
Ok, so if this new guy “the examiner” takes control of the NRA, what happens like it was said the NRA might not be around for a bit, what happens to all the memberships, does it mean the members are gone, what happens to all the donations that were given, just curious, to me, doesn’t sound good filing bankruptcy to move the organization to Texas....sounds hinky to me, but that’s me.
Concur, Anni....
I’m no expert, but bankruptcy used to have something to do with “the bank”... as in, money. A business wasn’t able to bring in as much as it was paying out and found itself in the red too much. Maybe that’s too simplistic, but I’m into fundamentals not convolutions.
Moving somewhere might make good sense if your manufacturing but this is supposed to be a lobby/watchdog group (at least that’s why I’m a member) and not a profit concern.
Yeah, they’re under legal attack but a phys move does NOT erase that. Its hinky, alright. Like my Dad (aka “the Expert”) used to say “there’s a skunk in that thicket somewhere”...
 

BET7

Hellcat
Founding Member
I think what happened is the organization filed for 'Chapter 11' bankruptcy, which as I understand was to basically get them out from under any debt obligations to the state of New York while they reorganize financially .... and maybe some creditors other than state. It gives them a clean slate to basically start over (reorganize) in another location.

Memberships and finances, including any contributions are secure as if it never happened. It's just a legal way of restructuring the financials including indebtedness.
That is my understanding as well JJ, good post 👍
 

BobM

Professional
Ok, so if this new guy “the examiner” takes control of the NRA, what happens like it was said the NRA might not be around for a bit, what happens to all the memberships, does it mean the members are gone, what happens to all the donations that were given, just curious, to me, doesn’t sound good filing bankruptcy to move the organization to Texas....sounds hinky to me, but that’s me.
Basically from what previously read and NRA stated, current NRA members have little to fear on membership being honored, all will be honored. Same scenario with creditors and business partners.

Personally and just opinion, during chapter 11 bankruptcy many things, pretty much everything, are/is up in the air - including anyone's good or bad intentions. - It is primarily a reorganizational tool. Current debts and obligations can be honored or dismissed by judge.

From what else read and involved in Chapter 11, the examiner is supposed to be a fair and impartial person. Which sounds like he is. So? Most anything goes. What to expect? Pretty much anything. But, also sounds like it was a very wise move by someone involved inside to keep NRA and membership alive. NRA's trying to survive in NY could be very tough with much of the states current society and laws around there? Bankruptcy is Federal, not state run. That's a plus for NRA and members.

Thinking all may be double or many edged sword though? So can be hard telling? Trying to keep lights on, reorganize, relocate, increase membership and revenue, pacify current membership and keep whole NRA boat afloat during bankruptcy proceedings are many different things all transpiring all at once. That will take good leadership to succeed. Under their present circumstances, thinking and hoping their boat stands a very good chance at refloating in new location with hopefully new leadership. NRA may still be a bit tipsy for now. But, should be okay and survive. Some people wanting to join NRA or renew memberships have a wait and see attitude that may be wisest choice? But, who knows yet?
 

BET7

Hellcat
Founding Member
Basically from what previously read and NRA stated, current NRA members have little to fear on membership being honored, all will be honored. Same scenario with creditors and business partners.

Personally and just opinion, during chapter 11 bankruptcy many things, pretty much everything, are/is up in the air - including anyone's good or bad intentions. - It is primarily a reorganizational tool. Current debts and obligations can be honored or dismissed by judge.

From what else read and involved in Chapter 11, the examiner is supposed to be a fair and impartial person. Which sounds like he is. So? Most anything goes. What to expect? Pretty much anything. But, also sounds like it was a very wise move by someone involved inside to keep NRA and membership alive. NRA's trying to survive in NY could be very tough with much of the states current society and laws around there? Bankruptcy is Federal, not state run. That's a plus for NRA and members.

Thinking all may be double or many edged sword though? So can be hard telling? Trying to keep lights on, reorganize, relocate, increase membership and revenue, pacify current membership and keep whole NRA boat afloat during bankruptcy proceedings are many different things all transpiring all at once. That will take good leadership to succeed. Under their present circumstances, thinking and hoping their boat stands a very good chance at refloating in new location with hopefully new leadership. NRA may still be a bit tipsy for now. But, should be okay and survive. Some people wanting to join NRA or renew memberships have a wait and see attitude that may be wisest choice? But, who knows yet?
Very good description of the process @BobM ... thanks (y)
 

jumpinjoe

Professional
Concur, Anni....
I’m no expert, but bankruptcy used to have something to do with “the bank”... as in, money. A business wasn’t able to bring in as much as it was paying out and found itself in the red too much. Maybe that’s too simplistic, but I’m into fundamentals not convolutions.
Moving somewhere might make good sense if your manufacturing but this is supposed to be a lobby/watchdog group (at least that’s why I’m a member) and not a profit concern.
Yeah, they’re under legal attack but a phys move does NOT erase that. Its hinky, alright. Like my Dad (aka “the Expert”) used to say “there’s a skunk in that thicket somewhere”...
I think the basis for the phys move is far more related to unfair business treatment, NY's crazy regulations, NY's crazy taxes/tax structure, etc, not conducive to being able to function any longer in that state. In all fairness, NRA is only one of many businesses leaving the state for one reason or another. I'm pretty sure the move had been contemplated for some time even before the lawsuits.

Moving a manufacturing business out of the state would also be wise, but for a whole other set of reasons. :);)(y)(y)
 
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