Carry vs No Guns sign.

[C. Sumpin]

Except it is a foul.

Just because “I didn’t get caught” doesn’t mean it isn’t wrong.

Your blatant disrespect for others’ property rights is on full display here.

My my Hans, what pulpit are you preaching from this Sunday?
And Papa will be in the Choir?

I've already admitted to being a naughty boy, I'll accept a spanking then go to confessional,
then give prayerful consideration to reforming my ways so that perhaps I'll have a seat
amongst the Holy.

What else?

 

[Keystone19250]

Except it is a foul.

Just because “I didn’t get caught” doesn’t mean it isn’t wrong.

Your blatant disrespect for others’ property rights is on full display here.

This is the bottom line and well said. Respect is not given it is earned. If we as 2A supporters including in that we “want, need, and or expect”
Our rights to be respected then we need to offer and show that same level of respect to others. I remember a few months back I went to a new doctor to discuss a concern, since I was carrying I made the decision to leave my weapon in the truck hidden away from prying eyes. Of course my holster was on my belt, in the doctors office I was asked to remove my shirt, the doctor didn’t even flinch, I explained that my handgun was in the truck, his response? I respect your right to carry and appreciate your concern about my and my office staff right to not be around guns. I’ll add he had no sign on the door.
It’s all about respect.

 

[David N.]

I appreciate this thread, because it pointed out my own occasional lack of integrity. In the Army we defined integrity as doing what's right even when no one is looking.

 

[Bassbob]

While I completely agree store owners have the right to prohibit carrying weapons in their stores, I fall very short of labeling doing it as some major lack of integrity. I can name 1000 things that average people and many people even here on this forum do that are far more immoral or lacking of integrity than sliding into Kroger with a gun no one will ever know you have.

 

[David N.]

While I completely agree store owners have the right to prohibit carrying weapons in their stores, I fall very short of labeling doing it as some major lack of integrity. I can name 1000 things that average people and many people even here on this forum do that are far more immoral or lacking of integrity than sliding into Kroger with a gun no one will ever know you have.

Bob, please don't take my earlier post as an outward examination or some veiled form of a pointed finger. This was a purely inward reflection of my own deeds not to be compared to others.

 

[HayesGreener]

I leave everyone to make their own decisions about whether to comply with those extralegal signs. It is a personal choice and I respect that.

I see it a bit differently from my point of view, having carried a firearm every day, often concealed, for more that 50 years. As a law enforcement officer for more than 40 years, state and federal law gave me the right to carry a firearm everywhere I went, with the exception of secured custody areas. It is ludicrous to think an officer would have to disarm when entering a public business due to a sign on the door.

Likewise, as a private investigator/body guard I have a state issued license to carry a concealed firearm, which says in bold letters, "ANYWHERE IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA". If I am protecting a client on a shopping trip, am I expected to leave my gun in the Suburban because there is a sign on the door? (By the way I have not done a body guard job for a couple years).

And I have a Concealed Weapons and Firearm License issued by the State of Florida which allows me to carry a firearm in all but 15 places enumerated by the law.

Now my point is, if the law allows me to carry my firearm, and the sign has no force of law, why should the whims of a store manager trump my legal authority to carry my concealed forearm in a business that is open to the public? It will never be an issue if it is concealed and no one knows. After all, isn't that the whole point of concealed? And then there is the problem of weapon security in vehicles which is a whole other topic.

As a career law enforcement officer, my greatest nightmare has always been that violence would occur in my presence and I would be powerless to stop it. That is still the case, 10 years after I retired. I maintain my LEOSA qualification and am sure that every on of the 50 or so other retired officers who show up for qualification feel the same about it.

As mentioned before, I have researched hundreds of active shooter/mass murder cases while developing an active shooter prevention and response training program for private and government entities. Some active shooters have specific victims in mind (domestic relationship, bosses/co-workers, service providers, etc). But many of the most prolific killers in mass shooting events are just after a big body count. That means they chose public spaces with large numbers of soft targets available. Many of those venues are "gun free zones". As long as I am within the boundaries of the law, if I go to a grocery store, or mall, or restaurant, or movie theater I assure you I will be armed, irrespective of any signs on the door.

Just the view from my saddle, everyone is entitled to their personal decisions in the matter.

And training for concealed weapons licensees, there is another topic..........

 

[C. Sumpin]

I leave everyone to make their own decisions about whether to comply with those extralegal signs. It is a personal choice and I respect that.

I see it a bit differently from my point of view, having carried a firearm every day, often concealed, for more that 50 years. As a law enforcement officer for more than 40 years, state and federal law gave me the right to carry a firearm everywhere I went, with the exception of secured custody areas. It is ludicrous to think an officer would have to disarm when entering a public business due to a sign on the door.

Likewise, as a private investigator/body guard I have a state issued license to carry a concealed firearm, which says in bold letters, "ANYWHERE IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA". If I am protecting a client on a shopping trip, am I expected to leave my gun in the Suburban because there is a sign on the door? (By the way I have not done a body guard job for a couple years).

And I have a Concealed Weapons and Firearm License issued by the State of Florida which allows me to carry a firearm in all but 15 places enumerated by the law.

Now my point is, if the law allows me to carry my firearm, and the sign has no force of law, why should the whims of a store manager trump my legal authority to carry my concealed forearm in a business that is open to the public? It will never be an issue if it is concealed and no one knows. After all, isn't that the whole point of concealed? And then there is the problem of weapon security in vehicles which is a whole other topic.

As a career law enforcement officer, my greatest nightmare has always been that violence would occur in my presence and I would be powerless to stop it. That is still the case, 10 years after I retired. I maintain my LEOSA qualification and am sure that every on of the 50 or so other retired officers who show up for qualification feel the same about it.

As mentioned before, I have researched hundreds of active shooter/mass murder cases while developing an active shooter prevention and response training program for private and government entities. Some active shooters have specific victims in mind (domestic relationship, bosses/co-workers, service providers, etc). But many of the most prolific killers in mass shooting events are just after a big body count. That means they chose public spaces with large numbers of soft targets available. Many of those venues are "gun free zones". As long as I am within the boundaries of the law, if I go to a grocery store, or mall, or restaurant, or movie theater I assure you I will be armed, irrespective of any signs on the door.

Just the view from my saddle, everyone is entitled to their personal decisions in the matter.

And training for concealed weapons licensees, there is another topic..........

There you have it Folks; from the voice of experience and reason.

Well stated and thank you Mr. Green.................but now.................you may have to join me this morning in Sunday service to repent as the (2) moral guides of the forum will cry "foul on display"! "Be Respectful". "Be a Holier Than Thou Ambassador"! "Don't mind the Constitution"!

Thank God that Common Sense & experience (and Spine) (sometimes) trumps the Queens Manners!!

 

[HayesGreener]

There you have it Folks; from the voice of experience and reason.

Well stated and thank you Mr. Green.................but now.................you may have to join me this morning in Sunday service to repent as the (2) moral guides of the forum will cry "foul on display"! "Be Respectful". "Be a Holier Than Thou Ambassador"! "Don't mind the Constitution"!

Thank God that Common Sense & experience (and Spine) (sometimes) trumps the Queens Manners!!

I will not be involved in any labeling of others for their beliefs, but I do carry a gun in church...

 

[Bassbob]

I leave everyone to make their own decisions about whether to comply with those extralegal signs. It is a personal choice and I respect that.

I see it a bit differently from my point of view, having carried a firearm every day, often concealed, for more that 50 years. As a law enforcement officer for more than 40 years, state and federal law gave me the right to carry a firearm everywhere I went, with the exception of secured custody areas. It is ludicrous to think an officer would have to disarm when entering a public business due to a sign on the door.

Likewise, as a private investigator/body guard I have a state issued license to carry a concealed firearm, which says in bold letters, "ANYWHERE IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA". If I am protecting a client on a shopping trip, am I expected to leave my gun in the Suburban because there is a sign on the door? (By the way I have not done a body guard job for a couple years).

And I have a Concealed Weapons and Firearm License issued by the State of Florida which allows me to carry a firearm in all but 15 places enumerated by the law.

Now my point is, if the law allows me to carry my firearm, and the sign has no force of law, why should the whims of a store manager trump my legal authority to carry my concealed forearm in a business that is open to the public? It will never be an issue if it is concealed and no one knows. After all, isn't that the whole point of concealed? And then there is the problem of weapon security in vehicles which is a whole other topic.

As a career law enforcement officer, my greatest nightmare has always been that violence would occur in my presence and I would be powerless to stop it. That is still the case, 10 years after I retired. I maintain my LEOSA qualification and am sure that every on of the 50 or so other retired officers who show up for qualification feel the same about it.

As mentioned before, I have researched hundreds of active shooter/mass murder cases while developing an active shooter prevention and response training program for private and government entities. Some active shooters have specific victims in mind (domestic relationship, bosses/co-workers, service providers, etc). But many of the most prolific killers in mass shooting events are just after a big body count. That means they chose public spaces with large numbers of soft targets available. Many of those venues are "gun free zones". As long as I am within the boundaries of the law, if I go to a grocery store, or mall, or restaurant, or movie theater I assure you I will be armed, irrespective of any signs on the door.

Just the view from my saddle, everyone is entitled to their personal decisions in the matter.

And training for concealed weapons licensees, there is another topic..........

I was going to bring this up earlier in this thread, but sometimes around here I just don't have the mental energy to waste my time trying to introduce my logic to those who won't see it anyway. That is to say, I was going to ask some of the people who are claiming it lacks integrity to carry a concealed weapon into a store with a sign on the window if their interpretation applied to off duty LEO or other people who are armed in an official capacity. Because according to the law, I enjoy that same determination. The fact that the state ( my state anyway) felt the need to officially point out in the statute that those signs do not have the force of law is not insignificant. Now being asked to leave and then refusing is still trespassing, but as you clearly pointed out, if someone knows you are armed you're doing it wrong.

I will also redirect those of us who are involved in this conversation to the video someone posted about 3/4 of the way down on page one of the thread I started last night about the Fentanyl epidemic. Specifically the video on Ed Calderon's EDC.

 

[Bassbob]

Bob, please don't take my earlier post as an outward examination or some veiled form of a pointed finger. This was a purely inward reflection of my own deeds not to be compared to others.

My post, which you quoted, was not directed at anyone specifically David. No worries.

 

[David N.]

My post, which you quoted, was not directed at anyone specifically David. No worries.

Thanks, Bob. Sometimes these posts, especially this one have me conflicted. What is right, what is legal, what is courteous, what other considerations.

Do I carry, or disarm and stow? I don't like the second option.

 

[Frank 2041]

I like the Florida law.. But in Ohio 1st time is a trespass charge, 2nd time is a Felony. So i'm not gonna risk it. In the area i live..i can't think of any place that has a no gun sign, other than Govt bldgs. But if i see one..i will just go shop/eat someplace else. I'm not leaving my gun unattended in my truck. And... my Doctor carries, so no issues going in there..

 

[jumpinjoe]

There are no 'cut n dried' answers to the question of ignoring a sign on a door with no legal force, but is the right and privilege of the property owner. I've said before it makes absolutely no sense when I'm standing armed 1000ft from a school yard and totally legal, but if I take one step towards that school yard, now I'm guilty of a felony. Or if I'm legal walking up to a municipal building while carrying and legal, what magic is it that makes me illegal the instant I step over the threshold of the front door of that building. Or what if I'm driving to a school to pick up my grand kids and while parked on the school grounds waiting for the dismissal bell, I suddenly realize I'm still carrying my CCW that I simply forgot to remove and leave at home while I pick the kids up. We all have at one time or another simply forgotten we were carrying due to the familiarlity of the gun on our side and simply not thinking to remove it. There's no doubt I'm in violation of law, but my choice is to either sit quietly waiting for the kids to come out to the truck still carrying, or leave the area and find somewhere to safely leave/store my gun, then go back to the school to pick up the kids. There's many more just this stupid, but no need to go on.

If we violate either of these laws, stupid or not, we're in violation of law. Now with the private property owner's sign in the window ..... two things come to light here in my mind. I know the signs have no backing in law, just as the 'STOP' signs inside the confines of a private property parking lot don't. If I chose to ignore the sign and enter the premises, as long as I'm undetected, I'm OK on a legal level, but must console myself on a personal level since in effect I've trampled on the owner's private property rights. If however I am detected and asked to leave, then I can be cited for trespass if I don't immediately leave those premises.

Ah, but there's more to it ...... if the 'private property' in question is typically open to the public for public use, then I personally don't put quite as much stock in a sign as I do if the sign is on his private property where the public is typically not invited nor allowed. For example, his home. I would never enter someone's home armed if that property owner requested that I not do it. It's his property, his rights, so it's his rules, no question about it. The other scenario wherein the property is in fact privately owned property, but for the use and enjoyment of the general public, such as retail stores, amusement parks, etc, etc, then I place an entirely different light on it. Basically in some cases I'll ignore the sign and enter even when armed. On the other hand in different cases and based on what I've written above, I won't. When/if we take either stand, we must accept our own decisions, the basis for those decisions, and the possible/probable results of those decisions.

And previously I mentioned there were many more really stupid laws regarding carrying concealed that make absolutely no sense, so I'm going to list just this one more. With all due respect to any/all LEO's on here, or retired LEO's, I personally find it ludicrous that a LEO is allowed to carry in places where I would be in violation of law. In my prime, I was pretty equal in training and competency of most any major LEA, yet I'm disallowed in some places where the LEO's are allowed. By that same token, I think LEO's should be held to the same standard as us 'regular folks' when it comes to either ignoring or respecting these signs not backed by law. As Mr Greener so eloquently said he is/was made legal to carry in almost any situation in the state of Florida either by virtue of being a LEO, a private investigator and/or body guard, and a state licensed CCW carrier. OK, I'll concede the "being a LEO" part, but where does it make any sense for him to legally carry as a PI or body guard, when someone else isn't legal as a mechanical engineer or brain surgeon under the same situations? And don't misunderstand what I'm saying here, I have absolutely no qualms about Mr Greener on a personal basis. I'm only mentioning him because he made my points so clear in his earlier post. To remove any doubt, I will say here and now, I have the utmost respect for Mr Greener as we have respectfully and intelligently discussed other issues in the past. It's the idiocy of the laws I'm talking about.

And I'm fully aware of the training and competency differences required of a LEO and a mechanical engineer. However I see no difference in the PI and the ME, neither are law enforcement but both are professional jobs, or the body guard and the brain surgeon. They are all professionals, just in a different trade. All can be trained to a similar degree of competency, but the law is not bound to any competency level, only to the name of the job. Yes I know it requires a certain level of proficiency to get a PI license, that's not the question, and I know I'm painting with a broad brush so I'm counting on y'all understanding I'm not arguing for/against any person or even any profession. What I'm arguing is the total idiocy of some gun carrying laws, and/or the basis for them. Go back and read my first paragraph if necessary.

 

[C. Sumpin]

" If I chose to ignore the sign and enter the premises, as long as I'm undetected, I'm OK on a legal level, but must console myself on a personal level since in effect I've trampled on the owner's private property rights."

Mr. Jumpin, Fine post, don't disagree with it but based on the sentence above I must refer you to Mr. Gruber for counseling.

 

[tapehoser]

I think a lot of us are just going to have to agree to disagree on the matter.

Opposing viewpoints are OK....nay....ESSENTIAL in any situation. In order to become well-rounded, knowledgeable, and educated, you're always going to need opposing viewpoints so that we can see a 360 degree picture of any issue.

 

[KLGunner]

It depends on the state you are in and your state statutes. In Florida for example, a "no Firearms" sign has no force of law and you can ignore it. If they know you have it they can ask you to leave and you have to go or you are trespassing. (there are 15 places where you cannot carry a gun by law but that's another subject FS 790.06 (12)a.). In Texas on the other hand, if the sign is worded as prescribed by law, if you enter with a gun you are in violation of the law. Having a lock box or locking console, or better yet a console vault, is the only option if you have to leave it in the truck. Know the laws where you are.

@HayesGreener this actually changed in Texas. As the law stands at the moment, In Texas if a business has a legal 30.06 or 30.07 posted at the proper places of the business. Then the following laws apply a person lawfully carrying a firearm may be asked to leave my a member of management or business owner only and it must be in writing. Then if the person does not leave the law can be called and the person trespassed. If a member of management does not ask you to leave or put your firearm in your vehicle the law enforcement officers can not enforce law 30.06 or 30.07. Matter of fact as of September 1st of 2021 businesses have even less ability to enforce those laws with Texas being Constitutional Carry now.

 

[HayesGreener]

@HayesGreener this actually changed in Texas. As the law stands at the moment, In Texas if a business has a legal 30.06 or 30.07 posted at the proper places of the business. Then the following laws apply a person lawfully carrying a firearm may be asked to leave my a member of management or business owner only and it must be in writing. Then if the person does not leave the law can be called and the person trespassed. If a member of management does not ask you to leave or put your firearm in your vehicle the law enforcement officers can not enforce law 30.06 or 30.07. Matter of fact as of September 1st of 2021 businesses have even less ability to enforce those laws with Texas being Constitutional Carry now.

That is good to know. A more reasonable approach

 

[Annihilator]

@HayesGreener this actually changed in Texas. As the law stands at the moment, In Texas if a business has a legal 30.06 or 30.07 posted at the proper places of the business. Then the following laws apply a person lawfully carrying a firearm may be asked to leave my a member of management or business owner only and it must be in writing. Then if the person does not leave the law can be called and the person trespassed. If a member of management does not ask you to leave or put your firearm in your vehicle the law enforcement officers can not enforce law 30.06 or 30.07. Matter of fact as of September 1st of 2021 businesses have even less ability to enforce those laws with Texas being Constitutional Carry now.

I think @KLGunner has something to do with this…..

 

[ScottJ]

There are no 'cut n dried' answers to the question of ignoring a sign on a door with no legal force, but is the right and privilege of the property owner. I've said before it makes absolutely no sense when I'm standing armed 1000ft from a school yard and totally legal, but if I take one step towards that school yard, now I'm guilty of a felony. Or if I'm legal walking up to a municipal building while carrying and legal, what magic is it that makes me illegal the instant I step over the threshold of the front door of that building. Or what if I'm driving to a school to pick up my grand kids and while parked on the school grounds waiting for the dismissal bell, I suddenly realize I'm still carrying my CCW that I simply forgot to remove and leave at home while I pick the kids up. We all have at one time or another simply forgotten we were carrying due to the familiarlity of the gun on our side and simply not thinking to remove it. There's no doubt I'm in violation of law, but my choice is to either sit quietly waiting for the kids to come out to the truck still carrying, or leave the area and find somewhere to safely leave/store my gun, then go back to the school to pick up the kids. There's many more just this stupid, but no need to go on.

If we violate either of these laws, stupid or not, we're in violation of law. Now with the private property owner's sign in the window ..... two things come to light here in my mind. I know the signs have no backing in law, just as the 'STOP' signs inside the confines of a private property parking lot don't. If I chose to ignore the sign and enter the premises, as long as I'm undetected, I'm OK on a legal level, but must console myself on a personal level since in effect I've trampled on the owner's private property rights. If however I am detected and asked to leave, then I can be cited for trespass if I don't immediately leave those premises.

Ah, but there's more to it ...... if the 'private property' in question is typically open to the public for public use, then I personally don't put quite as much stock in a sign as I do if the sign is on his private property where the public is typically not invited nor allowed. For example, his home. I would never enter someone's home armed if that property owner requested that I not do it. It's his property, his rights, so it's his rules, no question about it. The other scenario wherein the property is in fact privately owned property, but for the use and enjoyment of the general public, such as retail stores, amusement parks, etc, etc, then I place an entirely different light on it. Basically in some cases I'll ignore the sign and enter even when armed. On the other hand in different cases and based on what I've written above, I won't. When/if we take either stand, we must accept our own decisions, the basis for those decisions, and the possible/probable results of those decisions.

And previously I mentioned there were many more really stupid laws regarding carrying concealed that make absolutely no sense, so I'm going to list just this one more. With all due respect to any/all LEO's on here, or retired LEO's, I personally find it ludicrous that a LEO is allowed to carry in places where I would be in violation of law. In my prime, I was pretty equal in training and competency of most any major LEA, yet I'm disallowed in some places where the LEO's are allowed. By that same token, I think LEO's should be held to the same standard as us 'regular folks' when it comes to either ignoring or respecting these signs not backed by law. As Mr Greener so eloquently said he is/was made legal to carry in almost any situation in the state of Florida either by virtue of being a LEO, a private investigator and/or body guard, and a state licensed CCW carrier. OK, I'll concede the "being a LEO" part, but where does it make any sense for him to legally carry as a PI or body guard, when someone else isn't legal as a mechanical engineer or brain surgeon under the same situations? And don't misunderstand what I'm saying here, I have absolutely no qualms about Mr Greener on a personal basis. I'm only mentioning him because he made my points so clear in his earlier post. To remove any doubt, I will say here and now, I have the utmost respect for Mr Greener as we have respectfully and intelligently discussed other issues in the past. It's the idiocy of the laws I'm talking about.

And I'm fully aware of the training and competency differences required of a LEO and a mechanical engineer. However I see no difference in the PI and the ME, neither are law enforcement but both are professional jobs, or the body guard and the brain surgeon. They are all professionals, just in a different trade. All can be trained to a similar degree of competency, but the law is not bound to any competency level, only to the name of the job. Yes I know it requires a certain level of proficiency to get a PI license, that's not the question, and I know I'm painting with a broad brush so I'm counting on y'all understanding I'm not arguing for/against any person or even any profession. What I'm arguing is the total idiocy of some gun carrying laws, and/or the basis for them. Go back and read my first paragraph if necessary.

I have my CCDW (Ky) license, and I'm retired military, however, when I go to the local (45 mile one-way trip) military facility to shop, a CC license is not recognized, and firearms are not allowed. Can't even bring one onto the facility.

 

[Jimbo]

If I know I'm going to a place where I can't take my gun (e.g. the doctor's office, the school), I'll stash my gun in the car before I get there, because I don't want anyone in the next car seeing me stashing my gun.