Belt Fed
SAINT
Sure wish i was able to do that.
OldGrunt
Professional
Sure wish i was able to do that.
Retired Bum
Operator
Where can I get some popcorn around here? This stuff is hilarious! 
SimonRL
Ronin
Sure wish i was able to do that.
KillerFord1977
Emissary
Jester560
Professional
I guess standing static in front of a target does train you?
PieterCoetzee
Custom
Sure its where the fundamentals are learned; but maybe you werent being serious
Jester560
Professional
Oh I was being serious. Comps are much better training than stand & shoot.
PieterCoetzee
Custom
OK yes better than a square range better but better for what?
My point is a one way range (either static or moving) only teaches "one way" tactics and mentalities. Im not questioning that fundamentals are learned on a square range, neither do I question that running from cover to shooting position is a good thing to demonstrate--all true.
My issue with competition is that it teaches competitors how to win the match, especially when they are told ahead of time where to start, where to go, what to do, and when to stop. Its the math teacher, saying all the text questions will be from page 77. To pass the test all you have to do is study page 77, forget about the whole chapter that you may need later. Tell me you havent seen guys "shadow boxing" the stage before they step up to shoot. Thats gaming the game.
If you enjoy competition, GREAT. I really mean that. Take what you can from it; but I ask beyond trigger time, how much does practicing with a gun you dont carry on the street, with ammo you dont use except for competition, in a holster you dont use on the street, wearing clothes without a cover garment, really make you safer.
Special "props" for guys that DO use their carry gun, with carry ammo, in their carry holster, with a cover garment; but how many go that route in competition. Can you appendix carry, conceal carry. shoulder holster, pocket carry or however you carry on the street?
I push Force on Force because it shows you what happens when someone shoots back at you. Sure its only Simunitions or only Airsoft; but you "feel" the cost of your mistakes
Talyn
Emissary
At my former club our Range/Drill Leader used Mike Seeklander's manuals (both Competition/Defensive) for our sessions, and he had Seeklander stop by a couple times for some hands-on advice.
When Covid hit it messed the former club time up, so I got my own stands & targets for my own drills. I have my own copies of Seeklander's manuals, and still use them for my own practice drills at another range.
When Covid hit it messed the former club time up, so I got my own stands & targets for my own drills. I have my own copies of Seeklander's manuals, and still use them for my own practice drills at another range.
Retired Bum
Operator
Well Said, Amigo!
I've shot steel, IPSC, USPPA?, and one other, and they are good for the fun stuff. But nothing will fry the brain faster than return fire...
Jester560
Professional
It is as close to shooting under pressure as most of the general public will get. Also, you get out of it what you put into it.
Don't know of a training course in the US that is a true 2 way range, not even FoF.
You are told where to start as to make it a level playing field but how you run the course of fire is up to you.
In IDPA, a cover garment is required. A good percent of shooters use their edc as they use the comp for practice. You have to use a carry style holster.
Yes to all except shoulder holster and pocket carry.
FoF is a different creature. Purpose driven classes are very different than what most people consider "training". Most, not all, consider going to an indoor range, from time to time, training. It is better than nothing but not by much.
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Jester560
Professional
If me, go for it and I will add you to my list as well.
KillerFord1977
Emissary
I doubt thats the case. Its a certain PC
PieterCoetzee
Custom
Agreed
F on F is a two way range, No obviously not live cartridges; but with Sims or Airsoft you know when youve been hit
The real world isnt a level playing field. Thats the point. F on F gives you a scenario, like "bad guys just ran into that room and you hear screaming" OR "you are shopping and suddenly hear gunshots"
Cool can you use a crossdraw holster? Are there any requirements for the cover garment?
YES exactly. At this point I guess I would say there is training and TRAINING. I have no opposition to going to the range to practice.
Im still not convinced that competition goes much beyond sport but I can appreciate the added stress of time and score ranking that comes from the course. My objection is the "sport" mindset seems more prevalent than the training and yet its sold as training. From the beginning it was "marketed" and the industry was built around it
Retired Bum
Operator
Having been in the situation, I stand solidly by my statement.
Nothing will fry your brain faster than return fire. On a night qual one of the training officers threw a flash bang out in front of the officers on the line and I'm certain that some folks got home and changed their shorts. The immediate response was some folks dropped their firearms, some screamed, and a few that had been in the military just waited for the command from the range master...
Unfortunately, life ain't like Hollywood plays it to be...
Nothing will fry your brain faster than return fire. On a night qual one of the training officers threw a flash bang out in front of the officers on the line and I'm certain that some folks got home and changed their shorts. The immediate response was some folks dropped their firearms, some screamed, and a few that had been in the military just waited for the command from the range master...
Unfortunately, life ain't like Hollywood plays it to be...