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Declining Gun Shop Numbers …It’s Bill Clinton’s Fault

Having more/additional FFL's is not the answer, there will still be some number of scum bags who will sell indiscriminately and illegally. The answer is to make the penalty for these illegal sales so severe, so swift, and so sure that fewer and fewer scum bags will take the chance.

Now, I don't know for sure, I've not seen any updates, but I'd bet pretty heavily that the scum bag who sold the "home built" rifle with no serial number to the scum bag shooter in Texas a few months ago who did all the shooting at the shopping center, probably got off entirely on some plea bargain, or a technicality, that he felt no pain at all. If that piece of chit was prosecuted to the maximum extent of the law, and if the law and penalty was severe, swift and sure enough, it would convince him and others like him that 'it just ain't worth it no more'. BTW, I read somewhere that the rifle may have been a full auto conversion ...... who knows?

At the very least, if his azz was sent up the river for the rest of his natural life, he would never be a second offender !!! Then nobody would have to concern themselves whether he held an FFL or not. Y'all just think about it !!! (y)(y)(y)
 
well i can say this, about that...

in my area alone, there "used to be" a few gun shops. but they were small, so small, you had to step outside, to decide which gun you wanted to buy, at the prices they were selling for.

they (the smaller shops) could not compete with the larger stores if not in actual size, but in faster moving inventory at lower prices.

so the smaller shops closed up.

if any store on this planet, is going to sell at higher prices, and another store is going to not only sell the exact products for less, and offer MORE products to choose, from, i know where i am going to shop at, and have done so, even in the height of the pandemic panic days.

it's to me, "survival of the fittest", or capitalism at its finest, not one politician or another who caused it.
 
BobM said:
A recent a article about why there's not so many FFL's as there used to be and it's possible effects now days:

www.ammoland.com

Declining Gun Shop Numbers ...It's Bill Clinton's Fault

Democrats now want more gun dealers so they can conduct more background checks, which they believe will deter more crime, but the shortage can be traced back to Bill Clinton.
www.ammoland.com www.ammoland.com
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Many things went down the tubes when many smaller FFL's went out of business because of higher prices and more unrealistic laws and requirements. Prices paid? Sure it may have gotten rid of a few unscrupulous dealers, but it also got rid of many of the smaller mom and pop shops where people just trying to make a living doing what they loved and the joys of ownership of creating a business one could call their own like their own children. The sitting down having a chat about recent guns, safety, ammo, news, kids, dogs and whatevers while having cup of coffee. Doing those little things that eventually add up to things like good friendships. Sometimes, it seems as if the main goal some have in government is to make life more difficult for average people to get together for any reason especially when firearms are involved. Why is that? Jealous of people hanging out together, people talking together, the real friendships? .... it isn't always about firearms of what's actually destroyed is it?

Human life is valuable, more than money will ever be. Can't put a pricetag on it because it's never enough to replace ones lost for whatever reason. Yes, know first hand. Passing more and more overly redundant laws are never going to replace people lost because of one thing or another. Can see and understand the grieving, but listening to the normally overly biased poorly thought out reasoning and reactions of someone who's grieving, likely not in a good frame of mind, that sometimes infringe on others rights, thoughts and needs isn't usually the best answer. Simply put, it's often only an ill conceived excuse sometimes to make others as miserable as someone else may be too? To possibly pacify something that doesn't exist in real world as much as it does in their own mind? Sure, violence exists in a small percentage of our population, but it doesn't exist in the majority of it by any means. Usually, violence is only perpetuated by some in media, government and elsewhere seeking to capitalize on others misery and fears with manipulation because of ignorance and greed.
 
Old_Me, I think the efforts of Murphy and Cornyn has much less to do with more/additional gun shops, and much more to do with the hope of forcing fewer illegal, kitchen table, car trunk type sales by the scum bags who don't give a damn about who they sell to as long as the money is there. And I have to agree, if any number of them can be prosecuted for selling without an FFL, I'm all for it.

Yes, in the overall, it may be cause for a few additional NICS BG checks, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. The key component is that they are claiming to not be interfering with those private sales and other type transfers between you and your family members, and/or close friends, and so far I've not seen anything to the contrary. But this would have an impact on those scumbags who buy up in bulk and then set up at gun shows as private sellers, which today and by today's law requires no FFL, which means requires no NICS BG check.

These types and the back alley sellers are the scum bags I hate the most, and are obviously the ones who put the most firearms out into the wrong hands. Oh yeh, these are the scum bags who make us all look bad and give the anti-gun folks the argument about the "Gun show loophole". Now don't misunderstand, I'm not at all against a man going to a gun show and selling off one or two firearms he no longer wants, but when you see talbes stacked up with forty/fifty various firearms and you saw the same guy with the same table last month, you know he ain't a 'private' seller. He's a sorry, lowlife, good for nothing, lying, criminal scum bag. Oh yeh, did I explain just how bad I hate that kind?

Relative to the decrease in shops/businesses, I think many, if not most small 'Mom & Pop' type stores simply couldn't/can't hold up under the increased business pressures from new requirements, more competition (big box stores), less fiscal resources, less brick & mortar business/more I-net business, etc. Small businesses of all types, not just the gun shops are having a harder time these days.
 
Old_Me said:
well i can say this, about that...

in my area alone, there "used to be" a few gun shops. but they were small, so small, you had to step outside, to decide which gun you wanted to buy, at the prices they were selling for.

they (the smaller shops) could not compete with the larger stores if not in actual size, but in faster moving inventory at lower prices.

so the smaller shops closed up.

if any store on this planet, is going to sell at higher prices, and another store is going to not only sell the exact products for less, and offer MORE products to choose, from, i know where i am going to shop at, and have done so, even in the height of the pandemic panic days.

it's to me, "survival of the fittest", or capitalism at its finest, not one politician or another who caused it.
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Eh, firearms are one of the few industries that aren't so vulnerable to the threat of big box stores. Ever tried to buy a gun at walmart? You're lucky if they find someone who can facilitate the paper work same day (even during a time when there wasn't a run on guns). Their prices suck too. Sure a big box store like Sportsman's Warehouse is much better in that regard, and more difficult for a mom/pop shop to compete against.
 
There was a time when buying firearms at WalMart was a smart thing to do. Their prices were right most of the time, and they were pretty reliable in having the necessary ammo for the gun you just bought. Certainly not so much today, although I understand that firearms can still be bought through WalMart over the I-net.

But generally what I was referring to as 'big box' stores is those like Cabela's, Bass Pro, Academy, Sportsmans Guide, etc. Some are strictly I-net stores, others are home town friendly. But they all negatively affect the little mom/pop stores.
 
bigx5murf said:
Eh, firearms are one of the few industries that aren't so vulnerable to the threat of big box stores. Ever tried to buy a gun at walmart? You're lucky if they find someone who can facilitate the paper work same day (even during a time when there wasn't a run on guns). Their prices suck too. Sure a big box store like Sportsman's Warehouse is much better in that regard, and more difficult for a mom/pop shop to compete against.
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no, i never tried buying any gun or ammo at any walmart, but i have bought quite a few from online dealers, and had them shipped to my FFL.

so the threat of online gun sales, is another killer in the smaller, and at times, more expensive LGS's.
 
Old_Me said:
no, i never tried buying any gun or ammo at any walmart, but i have bought quite a few from online dealers, and had them shipped to my FFL.

so the threat of online gun sales, is another killer in the smaller, and at times, more expensive LGS's.
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From experience locally, likely never going to purchase a firearm through the internet. May research something online, but rarely purchase there. A few reasons why? One is many things can happen between point A and B during purchase besides sometimes hidden or unknown costs. One is quality of what purchased can be speculative when receiving something in different condition from one that's posted or shown. Another is unless actually holding and inspecting an individual firearm or accessory at your convenience, it may not be what's wanted. Plus can rarely speak to online sellers w/o some sort of hoopla when having questions.

Also, people are under different pressures of receiving a firearm ordered online delivered to local FFL isn't the same experience as purchasing and inspecting an instock firearm. Much of the things have received from online sources are damaged from shipping, poor packaging, handling or not as described. Plus, many things are dropped shipped. Some original sellers never sees or has any interest in actual product except their commission? There are a the few exceptions to the rule of the ones frequent and shop at online or locally now days.

When comparing online firearm prices verses local? Have often/usually found prices less at LGS after considering other costs and hastles involved with online purchases, plus after purchase support's generally better at LGS when firearm's directly purchased from them from experience here.....and then there's the smell of freshly brewed coffee at the LGS? On the flip side, guess online sellers could spray some coffee fragrance in the box? :)

Walmart's another whole story? Good old Sam is likely rolling over in his grave now days in hearing how his once great and respected company was transformed into almost the opposite of his original goal by who? Rarely frequent the place now for anything because of it. Sears and KMart were once great companies as well, where are they now?
 
I'd have a hard time buying a firearm online. I like to see and feel the one I want.

Walmart was once the largest ammo seller IIRC. Ours here in Illinois stopped selling all military centric ammo. No firearm sales at any in my area for 10yrs. No .223, 5.56, 9mm, 45acp sales for the last 3 or so. I'm sure there's more I can't remember. Ammo got stupid cheap for about a year while they cleared their warehouses. 200 rds of 9mm was less than $40 and 200rds of 45acp was $70.
Once upon a time I knew many gunsmiths that had shops in a building on their property. There wasn't signage and they wanted to be under the radar but run a legal business, but then either Illinois or the feds decided they now needed a store front and signage to be a business.
Many through in the towel.

In Illinois it's only gotten worse now.
 
Here's a really queer thing I saw at my local Walmart a few nights ago ....... A sign at what used to be the ammo counter/area that said: "Ammo sales available from 9:am till 5:pm only."

How the hell does that do anything to help the violent crime problem we're seeing today? Far as I can tell the only thing that does is to inconvenience the law-abiding folks. Just one more example of a stupid rule that does absolutely nothing to reduce the violent crime problem.
 
Jeez, not this again.

Indiscriminate ( By this I presume you mean no BGC or paperwork even with total strangers) private gun sales, while not anything I would do, are legal and constitutionally protected. Period. Trying to reduce violent crime by going after this is like trying to reduce drunk driving by banning Bud Light. It's just not going to make a difference. The percentage of violent crimes with a gun that is committed by someone who bought a gun legally is miniscule. Knowingly selling a gun to a felon is already a crime. If it is a legal, private gun sale, that gun can already be traced back to the guy who sold it whether he paid for a FFL or not. Opening the door for the government to "Regulate" private gun sales to make it slightly more difficult for the 1% of people who commit crimes with legal guns is ridiculous and it's these sort of compromises and fractures in the gun community that are the reason why you currently have to take out a loan and wait for a year to buy a suppressor that costs less than $30 to manufacture. Or why depending on where you live your AR must be equipped with a permanent magazine that holds 10 or less rounds. Keep giving them that quarter inch and see how many feet they wind up taking. " We've seen no evidence to the contrary". Are you kidding me man ? Let's trust the government when they say they aren't coming after your guns? That's insane.

Statistically almost none of the " Gun crime" in this country is committed by people who bought an otherwise legal gun from a non-felon private citizen with no BGC or paperwork., Sure. let's go ahead and give the government permission to regulate private gun sales. I mean it's not like the ATF or other government agencies can just change the rules after the fact any way they want to. Oh wait........

For the record, one of my best friends was a casualty of the Clinton administration's campaign to stamp out small FFL holders. So was my father.
 
BobM said:
From experience locally, likely never going to purchase a firearm through the internet. May research something online, but rarely purchase there. A few reasons why? One is many things can happen between point A and B during purchase besides sometimes hidden or unknown costs. One is quality of what purchased can be speculative when receiving something in different condition from one that's posted or shown. Another is unless actually holding and inspecting an individual firearm or accessory at your convenience, it may not be what's wanted. Plus can rarely speak to online sellers w/o some sort of hoopla when having questions.

Also, people are under different pressures of receiving a firearm ordered online delivered to local FFL isn't the same experience as purchasing and inspecting an instock firearm. Much of the things have received from online sources are damaged from shipping, poor packaging, handling or not as described. Plus, many things are dropped shipped. Some original sellers never sees or has any interest in actual product except their commission? There are a the few exceptions to the rule of the ones frequent and shop at online or locally now days.

When comparing online firearm prices verses local? Have often/usually found prices less at LGS after considering other costs and hastles involved with online purchases, plus after purchase support's generally better at LGS when firearm's directly purchased from them from experience here.....and then there's the smell of freshly brewed coffee at the LGS? On the flip side, guess online sellers could spray some coffee fragrance in the box? :)

Walmart's another whole story? Good old Sam is likely rolling over in his grave now days in hearing how his once great and respected company was transformed into almost the opposite of his original goal by who? Rarely frequent the place now for anything because of it. Sears and KMart were once great companies as well, where are they now?
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i have had some really VERY good luck, buying online. i know what i want for instance, a 1911. i already know how one feels in my hand, as they are all pretty much the same style, design and weights.

then i go to a place like (i know some say stay away), Gunbroker, and i read not only the good reviews, but any and ALL bad reviews on the seller.

i try to buy only from gun stores or warehouses, NOT private sales.

sometimes, the shipping is free, sometimes not. i use a credit card (safer than a debit card), and sometimes there is a credit card fee, sometimes not.

sales taxes are now being collected at the time of sale, in nearly all US States. if i buy at any of my LGS's, of course i have to pay sales taxes there on the spot.

my absolute BEST gun buying experience on Gunbroker....?

i wanted a 1911 that my LGS(s) simply could not get a hold of themselves.

it was a S&W Series "E".....

i emailed the seller, some gunshop in PA.....i DID NOT know, i could not do this, during an auction.

anyway, i made him an "offer he couldn't refuse", to buy now and be done with it....

he could not respond....the gun got sold. (this was on a sunday)

Monday morning, i get an email, he's got another one, he'll sell me for the money i offered....(below the sold for price by the way) .....NO sales taxes, NO credit card fee........

i made out quite well.

and that 1911...??? with sales tax, at my LGS..??? would have cost me $60 extra.

so i WILL buy from KNOWN online retailers. if i can buy my ammo online, gun parts online, nearly anything else gun related online, then i can buy my guns online as well...

all factory fresh, with full factory warranties. never had any problem registering my purchases with the companies for warranty coverages.
 
Bassbob said:
Jeez, not this again.

Indiscriminate ( By this I presume you mean no BGC or paperwork even with total strangers) private gun sales, while not anything I would do, are legal and constitutionally protected. Period. " ................................. "
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No Bob, what I meant by indiscriminate selling/seller is exactly what I wrote. A table stacked up with 40-50 guns, month after month the same seller with the same pile on the table ........... and the seller calling it "private sales". The ONLY way this guy is a 'private' seller is by virtue of him being a scum bag and refusing to get an FFL as is required, if not by the letter of the law, it certainly is required by the spirit of the law

You and I both are smart enough to know this guy is not a private seller in the vein in which it was defined, nor by the rules you and I live by. He's a scum bag who puts guns into the hands of anyone with the right number of dollars and doesn't give a damn about you or me as a law-abiding gun owner.

I'm in no way condoning any add to any law that negatively impacts the law-abiding gun owner, you should know that by now, and am a firm believer that most current laws should be enforced to the maximum extent. However there are laws on the books today that are weakly worded and very difficult to enforce under today's 'grey areas' and 'technicalities'.

These are laws that need fixing by either better wording, or a complete re-write. A good example is the private sale definition ....... the guy described above by the strictest definition is a constitutionally protected "private seller", not because he truly is, but because he skirts the law that was intended to protect the law-abiding gun owners like you and me. You and I both know he's a scum bag who will use the poorly worded existing law to skirt that very law and not only contributes to the violent crime problem, and the bad reputation of all legitimate gun owners, but in a small way hurts even those small mom/pop businesses we all talked about. In my definition he's neither a 'private seller' nor a law-abiding, responsible gun owner ...... he's a low life, scum bag.
 
jumpinjoe said:
No Bob, what I meant by indiscriminate selling/seller is exactly what I wrote. A table stacked up with 40-50 guns, month after month the same seller with the same pile on the table ........... and the seller calling it "private sales". The ONLY way this guy is a 'private' seller is by virtue of him being a scum bag and refusing to get an FFL as is required, if not by the letter of the law, it certainly is required by the spirit of the law

You and I both are smart enough to know this guy is not a private seller in the vein in which it was defined, nor by the rules you and I live by. He's a scum bag who puts guns into the hands of anyone with the right number of dollars and doesn't give a damn about you or me as a law-abiding gun owner.

I'm in no way condoning any add to any law that negatively impacts the law-abiding gun owner, you should know that by now, and am a firm believer that most current laws should be enforced to the maximum extent. However there are laws on the books today that are weakly worded and very difficult to enforce under today's 'grey areas' and 'technicalities'.

These are laws that need fixing by either better wording, or a complete re-write. A good example is the private sale definition ....... the guy described above by the strictest definition is a constitutionally protected "private seller", not because he truly is, but because he skirts the law that was intended to protect the law-abiding gun owners like you and me. You and I both know he's a scum bag who will use the poorly worded existing law to skirt that very law and not only contributes to the violent crime problem, and the bad reputation of all legitimate gun owners, but in a small way hurts even those small mom/pop businesses we all talked about. In my definition he's neither a 'private seller' nor a law-abiding, responsible gun owner ...... he's a low life, scum bag.
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By what means do you suggest the government go about figuring out how many guns a month this guy sells ? What if a guy has a collection he's selling off and has 40 guns on a table ? Maybe we watch him for a few months to see if he has 40 more next month? What powers exactly do you propose we give the government to determine who is just too cheap or lazy to get an FFL and who is just selling some guns ?
 
C'mon Bob, I don't propose giving the gov't any more power than they already have, but it's up to you and me as to how we want to have ourselves and other law-abiding gun owners to be perceived, and this kind of scum bag does nothing but add to the violent crime rates in the country as well as make all law-abiding, responsible gun owners look bad. Just how many times do you honestly think a guy who repeatedly stacks that table at a public gun show with 40-50 guns is truly an honest 'private' seller? I know you're smarter than that. In that same honest light, how many people do you even know who would have 40-50 guns to sell at any one time? I'll bet it's less than the number of fingers on one hand, not even counting the thumb. Your quandary about some guy who may want to sell his collection of 40 guns is a red herring. You know that would be a one in 'how many', certainly not the norm. And if he were right and true a private seller and he were truly selling his private collection regardless of the number, he would have no problem anyway. "Private" sales are exempt from the law! True "Private" sales.

But Bob, I want the SOB who is skirting the law and making me and you and every other law-abiding, responsible gun owner look like we're contributing to the crime rate to face the music, don't you? If he wants to sell 40-50 guns at every monthly public gun show, he's obviously in it for the profit/income and should man up and become a dealer. I guess I'd have to ask you just what is the number you would call over the limit to be a 'private' sale. If 40-50 guns a month are not enough for you to see through this POS, how many would it take? 100, 150, 250, 1000? You pick it, if you think the law, not a new law, but the law that already exists right now should be left as open and poorly defined as it is, OK, then just say that. But then how do you in the next breath say that all you want is enforcement of the laws already on the books. If you want a law that can be enforced, then you pick the number. That's all I'm saying the law should do is pick a damned number of what constitutes a likely real, honest, private, seller vs. a scum bag that will put guns into anyone's hands no matter the repercussions. And once the law is clearly defined, even someone who truly has more guns to sell than the laws stipulates can do that and be totally legitimate. Yes, he might have to show that it is in fact his private collection, but isn't he saying/claiming that already when he signs up for a 'private' sales table?

Bob, I'm every bit as particular in preserving our 2nd amendment rights as you or anyone else, more so than many. But I'm also a realist. People who skirt the law as I've described above are not honest people, they're not law-abiding people, they're typically a POS who don't give a damn who they sell to or what the guns they sell might be used for. My primary hope and focus is to see every good gun law on the books enforced to the inth degree, but if they're written/defined so poorly that they constantly let the scum bags off with the slap on the hand (I think that was your term for it) then how do you propose we make it better? Man, I truly don't know if I have the right answer, but I do know for certain that what we have right now ain't it. I'm working all I can to make things so that the bad guys feel the long arm of the law without dragging in the good guys. Tell me how you're willing to help.
 
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jumpinjoe said:
C'mon Bob, I don't propose giving the gov't any more power than they already have, but it's up to you and me as to how we want to have ourselves and other law-abiding gun owners to be perceived, and this kind of scum bag does nothing but add to the violent crime rates in the country as well as make all law-abiding, responsible gun owners look bad. Just how many times do you honestly think a guy who repeatedly stacks that table at a public gun show with 40-50 guns is truly an honest 'private' seller? I know you're smarter than that. In that same honest light, how many people do you even know who would have 40-50 guns to sell at any one time? I'll bet it's less than the number of fingers on one hand, not even counting the thumb. Your quandary about some guy who may want to sell his collection of 40 guns is a red herring. You know that would be a one in 'how many', certainly not the norm. And if he were right and true a private seller and he were truly selling his private collection regardless of the number, he would have no problem anyway. "Private" sales are exempt from the law! True "Private" sales.

But Bob, I want the SOB who is skirting the law and making me and you and every other law-abiding, responsible gun owner look like we're contributing to the crime rate to face the music, don't you? If he wants to sell 40-50 guns at every monthly public gun show, he's obviously in it for the profit/income and should man up and become a dealer. I guess I'd have to ask you just what is the number you would call over the limit to be a 'private' sale. If 40-50 guns a month are not enough for you to see through this POS, how many would it take? 100, 150, 250, 1000? You pick it, if you think the law, not a new law, but the law that already exists right now should be left as open and poorly defined as it is, OK, then just say that. But then how do you in the next breath say that all you want is enforcement of the laws already on the books. If you want a law that can be enforced, then you pick the number. That's all I'm saying the law should do is pick a damned number of what constitutes a likely real, honest, private, seller vs. a scum bag that will put guns into anyone's hands no matter the repercussions. And once the law is clearly defined, even someone who truly has more guns to sell than the laws stipulates can do that and be totally legitimate. Yes, he might have to show that it is in fact his private collection, but isn't he saying/claiming that already when he signs up for a 'private' sales table?

Bob, I'm every bit as particular in preserving our 2nd amendment rights as you or anyone else, more so than many. But I'm also a realist. People who skirt the law as I've described above are not honest people, they're not law-abiding people, they're typically a POS who don't give a damn who they sell to or what the guns they sell might be used for. My primary hope and focus is to see every good gun law on the books enforced to the inth degree, but if they're written/defined so poorly that they constantly let the scum bags off with the slap on the hand (I think that was your term for it) then how do you propose we make it better? Man, I truly don't know if I have the right answer, but I do know for certain that what we have right now ain't it. I'm working all I can to make things so that the bad guys feel the long arm of the law without dragging in the good guys. Tell me how you're willing to help.
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Ok, so answer my question. How do you propose to go about finding Mr. 40 guns at a table guilty of the crime ? Explain to me how this would be enforced? Also, a guy with a table at a gun show is almost 100% of the time going to need to have an FFL. Unless you go to some shady gunshows.

By the way, almost everyone I know has 40 guns.


Also, If you recall I am not and have not stated anything about current laws being enforced. I am the guy who thinks that almost all gun laws are unconstitutional and shouldn't be enforced. Furthermore, the guy selling guns for a living who doesn't have an FFL ( Do we have any stats on how many of these people actually exist or how much of a problem it actually is, because I have never met this guy and frankly I know some real pieces of **** ) is really just cheating the taxman and I certainly think he ought to be paying for that breach of the law.
 
Bob, I believe you to be a principled man who truly believes in and is true to his convictions. So am I. So let's you and I just agree to disagree on this issue and continue to be forum friends. Unfortunately I don't see us getting any further ahead on this topic.

And if I misunderstood you on wanting existing laws enforced, I apologize. I truly felt that somewhere I had seen you express that. It's all good!
 
jumpinjoe said:
Bob, I believe you to be a principled man who truly believes in and is true to his convictions. So am I. So let's you and I just agree to disagree on this issue and continue to be forum friends. Unfortunately I don't see us getting any further ahead on this topic.

And if I misunderstood you on wanting existing laws enforced, I apologize. I truly felt that somewhere I had seen you express that. It's all good!
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Agreed. And of course I want laws like criminal acts committed with guns enforced. Or possessing stolen guns. Or violent felons in possession of guns. Psychos etc. Most of the rest of them are useless.
 
I don't see a single thing in that ☝️ I would disagree with ............ seems like we only differ in how to qualify a real private seller from the scum bags. LOL!
 
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