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Does the Cartridge Still Matter?

How quickly, randomly and unexpectedly does someone move their head compared to their body ? It's all good and fine to define those parameters when you are talking about a static target. We train with " Robots". That is an upper body and head, on a pole, attached to a remote controlled base. Even though the head doesn't move independently, try taking head shots and compare them to HCM shots. You moving or standing still the results are still similar. Now add adrenalin. There is a reason why no LE agencies or legit instructors train for anything other than, multiple HCM shots in self defense scenarios.

^ Well, not *exactly* - the non-standard-response (NSR)/failure-to-stop typically ends with a shot to the CNS.....

But in any case. ;)

Now, remember, I wrote of the "eye-box" as a way to get us to focus-in on the anatomy - not [necessarily] as a recommendation to change our BSA template for defensive shooting (which, coincidentally, this December 21st article by Jeff Gurwich in American COP addresses - https://americancop.com/stopping-the-threat-pairing-natural-response-with-engagement-method/ ). Its discussion, in my twin posts above, was simply a way to narrow the discussion and to give the reader a bit easier way to imagine the correlation between external landmarks and internal anatomy, as the target moved in three dimensional space.

When the White Settlement, TX, shooting took place, a lot of folks tried to replicate in various shooting drills the shot that Mr. Jack Wilson took to end the threat inside the West Freeway Church of Christ.

The best that I saw was that from FPF Training, which, using FB as their platform, once had a video up that showed just how hard a moving head shot is. And to state the obvious, this is on a flat range, in a training context where the only pressure is that shot timer, and the target is moving at a predictable, constant rate.
 
I am comfortable with the .380 in summer, but I am also comfortable with. 38 special, 357 magnum, 9 x18 , and 9x19 I do own, and more than a few others I no longer own.

Do I expect everyone to believe the same, nope.

Carry what is comfortable. Practice practice practice. And don't argue calibers, religion. or politics is my motto...

Gave up on .380. 9mm Hellcat/s are minimum I carry. 1 in summer... 2 in winter.
 
I’d carry this if I could, but I cant, so its a sidearm

1640899406884.jpeg
 
^ Well, not *exactly* - the non-standard-response (NSR)/failure-to-stop typically ends with a shot to the CNS.....

But in any case. ;)

Now, remember, I wrote of the "eye-box" as a way to get us to focus-in on the anatomy - not [necessarily] as a recommendation to change our BSA template for defensive shooting (which, coincidentally, this December 21st article by Jeff Gurwich in American COP addresses - https://americancop.com/stopping-the-threat-pairing-natural-response-with-engagement-method/ ). Its discussion, in my twin posts above, was simply a way to narrow the discussion and to give the reader a bit easier way to imagine the correlation between external landmarks and internal anatomy, as the target moved in three dimensional space.

When the White Settlement, TX, shooting took place, a lot of folks tried to replicate in various shooting drills the shot that Mr. Jack Wilson took to end the threat inside the West Freeway Church of Christ.

The best that I saw was that from FPF Training, which, using FB as their platform, once had a video up that showed just how hard a moving head shot is. And to state the obvious, this is on a flat range, in a training context where the only pressure is that shot timer, and the target is moving at a predictable, constant rate.
Plenty of drills, not just the failure to stop drill, end with a headshot. That doesn't change the fact that EVERYONE is trained that the fastest way to stop a threat is multiple hits to the upper body.
 
^ So, "fastest" is arguable from that standpoint, too, right? ;)

The critical CNS shot is always, demonstrably, objectively going to be the on/off switch, from a physiologic point-of-view.

Critical amage - i.e. otherwise mortal wounds - to peripheral structures will still allow the wounded to continue to fight (providing that they have not decided to quit due to a "psychological stop") until their blood pressure can no longer support consciousness.

In a very concrete way, we can see the truth of the physiology in both the presentation by Dr. Grabinsky (https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/does-the-cartridge-still-matter.10166/#post-134402 - opening citation, pertinent portion of the video starting at the approx. 13 minute time-point), and again in the Gramins/Maddox shootout -


And from the opposite end of the spectrum, we have the inspiring story of Sgt. Stacy Lim of the LAPD: her heart was perforated by her assailant's round, and she "died on the table," yet prior to falling, she had managed to defeat her assailant and scatter the rest of his accomplices.

"Center-(of exposed)-mass" is where we are trained to engage not because it's the "fastest" way to shut-down the threat physiologically, but because it gives us as the shooter the best odds of making our hits when we are, ourselves, under critical stress and when both we as well as the threat(s) are in dynamic motion.

Extending this to the complete presentation (thus exposure) of the threat's body, we arrive at "high-center-chest" not as it's the true "center-of-mass" of the human body, but because this area offers us the best chances to effect critical damage to the lethal-force aggressor's anatomy -that of the heart and the great vessels, and to a lesser extent, the lung fields surrounding it- so that hypovolemic shock contributes to taking them "out of the fight." But physiologically, the blood-loss necessary to effect a true physiologic-stop is arrived-at only via the passage of time.

I get what you mean, @Bassbob , and I don't disagree: high-center-chest is our best bang for the buck, so to speak. In shooting reactively (i.e. "reactive" to the reactions of the threat), the "NSR" of repeated, rapid, successive shots to high-center-mass, continued until the threat is no longer aggressing certainly is the way to go. But in understanding human physiology, we must consider that even massive -mortal- trauma to that area still is bound to the laws of physics and biology, and will allow a determined threat to continue the attack until his or her body can no longer supply sufficient blood to the brain to keep it conscious.

Physiologically speaking, the fastest way to shut things down is the critical CNS shot.


-----


New England.

The SIG Sauer academy is perhaps the best-known "all-in one" in that area:


I have a few personal friends who have taken a few of their course offerings, and all speak nothing but praise of both the facility and its cadre.

It would be a great place to not only get started, but to also start networking contacts with fellow students/shooters. :)

To build your "tribe," as the late Pat Rogers was fond of encouraging of his students.
 
^ So, "fastest" is arguable from that standpoint, too, right? ;)

The critical CNS shot is always, demonstrably, objectively going to be the on/off switch, from a physiologic point-of-view.

Critical amage - i.e. otherwise mortal wounds - to peripheral structures will still allow the wounded to continue to fight (providing that they have not decided to quit due to a "psychological stop") until their blood pressure can no longer support consciousness.

In a very concrete way, we can see the truth of the physiology in both the presentation by Dr. Grabinsky (https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/does-the-cartridge-still-matter.10166/#post-134402 - opening citation, pertinent portion of the video starting at the approx. 13 minute time-point), and again in the Gramins/Maddox shootout -


And from the opposite end of the spectrum, we have the inspiring story of Sgt. Stacy Lim of the LAPD: her heart was perforated by her assailant's round, and she "died on the table," yet prior to falling, she had managed to defeat her assailant and scatter the rest of his accomplices.

"Center-(of exposed)-mass" is where we are trained to engage not because it's the "fastest" way to shut-down the threat physiologically, but because it gives us as the shooter the best odds of making our hits when we are, ourselves, under critical stress and when both we as well as the threat(s) are in dynamic motion.

Extending this to the complete presentation (thus exposure) of the threat's body, we arrive at "high-center-chest" not as it's the true "center-of-mass" of the human body, but because this area offers us the best chances to effect critical damage to the lethal-force aggressor's anatomy -that of the heart and the great vessels, and to a lesser extent, the lung fields surrounding it- so that hypovolemic shock contributes to taking them "out of the fight." But physiologically, the blood-loss necessary to effect a true physiologic-stop is arrived-at only via the passage of time.

I get what you mean, @Bassbob , and I don't disagree: high-center-chest is our best bang for the buck, so to speak. In shooting reactively (i.e. "reactive" to the reactions of the threat), the "NSR" of repeated, rapid, successive shots to high-center-mass, continued until the threat is no longer aggressing certainly is the way to go. But in understanding human physiology, we must consider that even massive -mortal- trauma to that area still is bound to the laws of physics and biology, and will allow a determined threat to continue the attack until his or her body can no longer supply sufficient blood to the brain to keep it conscious.

Physiologically speaking, the fastest way to shut things down is the critical CNS shot.


-----




The SIG Sauer academy is perhaps the best-known "all-in one" in that area:


I have a few personal friends who have taken a few of their course offerings, and all speak nothing but praise of both the facility and its cadre.

It would be a great place to not only get started, but to also start networking contacts with fellow students/shooters. :)

To build your "tribe," as the late Pat Rogers was fond of encouraging of his students.
i cannot go that far from the house. plus the cost involved in traveling, and maybe even lodging.

but yes otherwise i too have heard of the Sig Sauer school.
 
^ So, "fastest" is arguable from that standpoint, too, right? ;)

The critical CNS shot is always, demonstrably, objectively going to be the on/off switch, from a physiologic point-of-view.

Critical amage - i.e. otherwise mortal wounds - to peripheral structures will still allow the wounded to continue to fight (providing that they have not decided to quit due to a "psychological stop") until their blood pressure can no longer support consciousness.

In a very concrete way, we can see the truth of the physiology in both the presentation by Dr. Grabinsky (https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/does-the-cartridge-still-matter.10166/#post-134402 - opening citation, pertinent portion of the video starting at the approx. 13 minute time-point), and again in the Gramins/Maddox shootout -


And from the opposite end of the spectrum, we have the inspiring story of Sgt. Stacy Lim of the LAPD: her heart was perforated by her assailant's round, and she "died on the table," yet prior to falling, she had managed to defeat her assailant and scatter the rest of his accomplices.

"Center-(of exposed)-mass" is where we are trained to engage not because it's the "fastest" way to shut-down the threat physiologically, but because it gives us as the shooter the best odds of making our hits when we are, ourselves, under critical stress and when both we as well as the threat(s) are in dynamic motion.

Extending this to the complete presentation (thus exposure) of the threat's body, we arrive at "high-center-chest" not as it's the true "center-of-mass" of the human body, but because this area offers us the best chances to effect critical damage to the lethal-force aggressor's anatomy -that of the heart and the great vessels, and to a lesser extent, the lung fields surrounding it- so that hypovolemic shock contributes to taking them "out of the fight." But physiologically, the blood-loss necessary to effect a true physiologic-stop is arrived-at only via the passage of time.

I get what you mean, @Bassbob , and I don't disagree: high-center-chest is our best bang for the buck, so to speak. In shooting reactively (i.e. "reactive" to the reactions of the threat), the "NSR" of repeated, rapid, successive shots to high-center-mass, continued until the threat is no longer aggressing certainly is the way to go. But in understanding human physiology, we must consider that even massive -mortal- trauma to that area still is bound to the laws of physics and biology, and will allow a determined threat to continue the attack until his or her body can no longer supply sufficient blood to the brain to keep it conscious.

Physiologically speaking, the fastest way to shut things down is the critical CNS shot.


-----




The SIG Sauer academy is perhaps the best-known "all-in one" in that area:


I have a few personal friends who have taken a few of their course offerings, and all speak nothing but praise of both the facility and its cadre.

It would be a great place to not only get started, but to also start networking contacts with fellow students/shooters. :)

To build your "tribe," as the late Pat Rogers was fond of encouraging of his students.
High CM is fastest because you, me, Rob Leatham, Mas Ayoob and everyone else is about 10000 times more likely to make accurate hits on a moving target in a real world situation going for CM than they are going for CNS shots.

It's all good brother. I know you know what I mean and you know I am correct and you know that I know what you are saying is correct too. We're just going round a bit and all that typing appeals way more to you than it does me. ;-)
 
i cannot go that far from the house. plus the cost involved in traveling, and maybe even lodging.

but yes otherwise i too have heard of the Sig Sauer school.

Ah. I totally understand.

Got a state that you'd be wiling to zero in on?

To truly get to affordability, getting even more closely regional (i.e. area within a state: again, for me, for example, it would be northeast-Ohio) will be necessary, but I can definitely if you don't want to get more specific in an open, online Forum.
 
Ah. I totally understand.

Got a state that you'd be wiling to zero in on?

To truly get to affordability, getting even more closely regional (i.e. area within a state: again, for me, for example, it would be northeast-Ohio) will be necessary, but I can definitely if you don't want to get more specific in an open, online Forum.
due to conditions beyond my control, i am limited to my state. as well as the costs for something like that right now.

as it is, i wanted the CT and MA ccw permits, and the classes are not available for my times/dates, as well as the nonsense involved, in getting them.

i'd have been MORE interested in the ccw permits first.
 
^ No, no, I absolutely get it - it's just that what I was getting at was different than what I thought I'd read you wrote. ;)

How fast and easy we can score a hit (what you're talking about) is very different than how fast that threat will stop, physiologically speaking (what I was talking about).
 
Just some food for thought:

During the 18th century, most pistols were .62 caliber or larger. They worked well, but were single shot muzzleloaders so those who "used them in their trade" be it military or law enforcement (usually one and the same back then) carried them in pairs, then termed "a brace of pistols". It wasn't uncommon for a cavalry soldier to carry two or more braces, and that's pretty unsuitable for walking-about-guns.

Then the Texas Rangers, very lightly staffed, were in a running war with principally the Comanche. Along comes Colt's "Patterson" revolver, and the Rangers were pleased. After the Comanche overcame the shock of a Ranger having more than a couple of shots at hand, even more than one Patterson (and they were too scarce for many to have more than one) wasn't enough to reliably for one Ranger or two to stop a group of Comanche warriors. The Texas Rangers were professional soldiers, but there weren't enough of them for them to commonly go out in groups.

Along comes the .45 Long Colt. Solves the lack of "stopping power" the .36 sometimes had, and it can kill a horse if it runs away with the rider's foot stuck in the stirrup (which I've read was a major selling point, although I doubt many riders pulled that off).

Double-action pistols become common and the Army adopted the .38 (I think that was the .38 Long Colt, but am unsure). They're pleased that they no longer have to cock the gun and so can shoot faster and load faster (starting to sound familiar?), but in the Moro War in the southern Philippines they again find a poor record of stops, resulting in many U.S. soldiers getting decapitated by the Moros' favorite long knives after they'd shot the Moro, often more than once. They need something that will stop a fervent opponent's hostile actions because the .38 isn't cutting it.

Along comes the .45 A.C.P. and the 1911 pistol. Those made two big improvements, larger caliber and faster reloading (and arguably faster shooting for the average G.I.). This pistol and cartridge is the armed forces' staple for many years.

The military, though, wants higher magazine capacity since it had turned to deploying smaller numbers of professional soldiers instead of many thousands of draftees. Enter the 9mm, and that's where we are now.

Anyone else notice a pattern here?
 
^ I think it's *very* important to keep history in-mind - to both not forget what we've learned via blood/sweat equity, but also so that we have a better understanding of where future improvements need to take us.
I was very surprised that the US military stayed with 9mm in their new SIGs, after finding out that they've already decided to leave the 5.56 NATO standard in favor of a 6.8mm proprietary cartridge (commercially, the .277 Fury) in a roughly .308 sized case for their Next Generation Weapon System. It's almost like their right hand doesn't know what their left hand's doing.
 
^ I believe that it's because of the shift to modern hollowpoint ammo.

But I wonder exactly how well this will play, in terms of barrier performance.

Not so much of a concern for us average-Joe/Jane law-abiding citizens, but it's definitely something that law-enforcement has to contend with, and my first instinct is to think that the military would, too.

But when I think more towards the latter, I'm reminded that the handgun's role in the military is significantly different versus its role in either the police or civilian self-defense.

Unfortunately, this is where I reach the limits the puddle that I call my pool of knowledge, as it runs both narrow and shallow, here. 😅 I'm way out of my lane!
 
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