FBI take on the caliber debate
- Thread starter Onewolf426
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PieterCoetzee
Master Class
I would say any PD must/will first take budget into consideration. Changing guns/ammo is expensive. Next theres the question of what their staff can handle. The 10mm was a huge example of this as scores went dramatically down for some officers. My own department saw this when switching from 9mm to 40SW then years later back to 9mm (again with some smaller officers). As we change as a culture, less and less PD candidates have a background with firearms, particularly in the cities.
While I somewhat get the sentiment the FBI Firearms training Unit and Ballistics lab is far and above more attuned to things than any political shift.
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HayesGreener
Ronin
The firearms unit know their $h1t.
Hilton Yam addressed the 10mm issue in one of his videos. And kine him I would challenge any man to run a 5,000 round course in an academy (let alone a 1.000 round 2 day class) with a steel frame S&W 1076 and full powered 10mm I don’t care who you are you will have issues over running a Glock 17/19
And yes thwre is a Glock 20 and 1911’s but 10mm isn’t full powered unless you get specific rounds
Man’s the FBI goes worldwide and 9mm is available world wide through Military NATo and other local channels if needed
Jsimon78
Professional
The debate will always be there. Yes the 10MM has its issues and limits like every other round out there. I forgot which video I watched on this but it all depends on the projectile that makes it work.
Each manufacturer does stuff differently from civilian to government runs. The military is limited due to the Geneva Convention but the law enforcement isn’t. Then it comes to us the civilian population and who knows what it does.
Yes some of us do .380 and some of us like 10MM then list goes on. Personally I rather have a 10MM “but” my M&P is a weird one.
While we can cherry pick a case where this 45 or that 10mm worked better or is better than a 9mm the point of the video missed by a lot of folks (not saying you) but is the 9mm in 124-147 especially 135-247 gets to the sweet spot of 14-16” so a cross torso shot (aka Platt/FBI Miami fame) and thus is obviously good for a front on shot
9mm got a lot of hate for Miami when it wasn’t so much the 9mm but that particular Silvertip which did great on frontal shootings with departments but that one cross torso case it didn’t cause enouhh to shut him down fast enough and they had to blame something. Truth be told in that exact Miami scenario NATO ball would have had better results
Folk's want a 10mm or 45 it’s a great round if they can handle it and afford it. For an agency with 100 to 33,000 armed dudes with 14-16” 9mm makes perfect since
And same shot placement to same shot placement one isn’t enough of a difference to make a difference ask any trama surgical team.
Jsimon78
Professional
I agree. It all depends on the situation. Yes the debate will always be out there. I will always agree with the projectile and placement.
PieterCoetzee
Master Class
Well if we could count on PDs and the Feds hiring people who were built like the way cops used to look, (5'10"+ and able to lift their weight) that would be a great idea; but the sad fact is woke governments insist on hiring 90lb powder puffs and calling them cops. My last squad consisted of 3 females that together with all their gear might have weighed 400lbs and one could be counted on being pregnant at any time. When I fist started everybody in my basic class had firearm experience. In the last class before I retired only two recruits had ever fired a gun and none of that class males included weighed more than 150 lbs. Thats why PDs are phasing out shotguns....
Jsimon78
Professional
I honestly think that is sad. Personally I been learning to shoot from a few good friends that left the Corps and loved shooting. Yes I picked it up late in life but been trying stuff on a body that has been abused a tad too much. It’s sad I’m passing up people that should know better than me in a professional setting.
KillerFord1977
Emissary
Jsimon78
Professional
I agree.I say suck it up back at you and shoot a .50 cal.. Karen !! 10mm is for Nancies View attachment 103606
KillerFord1977
Emissary
What I found is back in the mid 80’s thwre was incentive to practice and be good. It was very revolver heavy so PPC was popular, a lot of us were roster adjusted to rep thr squadron or agency at a tri state PPC circuit in the summer on Saturdays
Fast forward to the 90’s through even now while thwre were more entering with firearms exposure we had a 10/80/10 effort top 10 were your gun fokks that practiced on their own and were top performers. The 80% while some might be close to the top 10 the bulk didn’t take it serious barely qualified and quipped “good enough til next year” and why shootings become mag dumps.
Them the bottom 10 I wouldn’t hire to scoop dog doo doo and get unions to make admins make qualifications easy
I could go on as I was involved in firearms, less lethal and use of force training with both the Fed LE Training Center and my state LE Academy
Chuck Haggard covered LE training here. Well worth the time to listen
Ok s ok Mr even get wrapped up in projectile, while yes a JHP is a better all around performer yjen ball ad Darryl Bolke says shot placement and penitrarion trumps caliber mag capacity and expansion.
And remember kids
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Jsimon78
Professional
I’ll be honest. I wish everyone that owns a firearm would go out and train. Get used to the firearms that they use. I know a bunch of us do and can get animated about what we do but we go do it.
I wish people would do one or two classes a year you learn stuff and have fun while meeting some great folks .
I run into a lot of the same folks going to national level classes from folks like haggard, Hearne Weems Rangemaster and such Amd local classes I donuts these folks which I am
Appreciative but a Lot of people that should take a couple classes won’t