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Fighting Off a Gun Grab: Do You Need a Fixed Blade Knife?

USS Callister

Operator
Being disabled, I'd be wary of carrying a knife--I wouldn't be able to handle it proficiently (no matter how much training and practice) and it wouldn't take much effort for a bad guy to take it from and use it against me. : |
 

Bassbob

Ronin
^ This is actually precisely the reason why I posted what I posted about the "competitive and non-cooperative" framework for drills and the "force-on-force" type of physical integrated-combatives training. It's also why I listed some of the tools that are used to allow for this type of training, with the ability to elicit some level of visceral fear-response.

A lot of folks see the neatly defined skills drills performed with (a) non-competitive and cooperative training partner(s) and assume that's the realities of physical combatives (weapons disarms are probably the hallmark of this type of work - ), but the harsh realities of the actual fights are quite different.

-----

I think it's also worth pointing out that *any* type of training - including that in defensive firearms - also has this same problem.

Just as you were told by someone with a lot of hand-to-hand experience about the realities of that kind of engagements, students who take the time to talk to their firearms instructors will also hear tales of their brothers/sisters-in-arms who were just as well -or even better- trained and who "did everything right," but nevertheless perished or were injured.

The disconnect between "drills" and "reality" is that in the latter, the other party has a say in the outcome. Force-on-force and other competitive/non-cooperative training is perhaps the best bridge that we have between the two.
Surely you aren't saying the odds between the two are the same. Or even in the same ballpark. Because they aren't.

Real world stat: I have been shot at 4 times in my life. I have never been shot. I have been in 1 knife fight. both participants were stabbed. The difference is that in a knife fight, everyone gets cut almost 100% of the time.

 

10mmLife

Moderator
Staff member
Founding Member
Yeah, not a bad idea to learn how to use a knife, but trust me, you can have all the high dollar training you want and when the guy you're fighting has a knife as well, you're most likely getting cut up. I've been told by more than one guy with much more experience with actual hand to hand combat that anyone who says they can train you to win knife fights is just stealing your money. Sure, some training can mitigate some situations, but it's just way to impossible to predict movement when a matter of missing by an inch means the big artery on your wrist just got opened up or you now have only one eye ball.
Training will definitely give you an advantage but nothing guarantees you won't get hit, hurt, or killed just like empty hands fighting where in a situation a trained mma fighter will most likely be the victor over a tough street thug but the trained fighter may still get a few lumps or scrapes only the stakes are higher with blades.

Serious training with blades teaches you distance, protecting your vitals, and limb destruction where your goal is not to go for a kill but to disable the threat which is done by attacking the threats hands and limbs with quick slashes while the threat is attacking.

Fighting for you life with a blade is more successful when you're defending your life against an attacker.

The threads article was about using your knife as a secondary backup to someone trying to take your gun which I agree is a better strategy than struggling for control.

The best advise for anyone is to avoid knife fights and any type of physical altercations and let go of egos no matter the training and only engage when all other options are off the table.
 
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KI4WTF

Elite
10mm life says....

"The best advise for anyone is to avoid knife fights and any type of physical altercations and let go of egos no matter the training and only engage when all other options are off the table"

I says......Amen Brother
 

TSiWRX

Professional
Surely you aren't saying the odds between the two are the same. Or even in the same ballpark. Because they aren't.

No, no, that is not what I was suggesting, at all. It was not what I wrote, and furthermore, it was never my intent to imply that it was.

My intent with the firearms training comparison was just as I wrote the words: only to highlight that in the vast majority of our training, we are not giving the other half of the equation its necessary due. That, specifically, in the real-world, our opponent(s) always get(s) a say.

With competitive and non-cooperative drills, we start to approach that end of the curve, and with Force-on-Force type training, we get even closer to the asymptote.

But even so, it still never saves us from being unlucky.

As @10mmLife noted and @KI4WTF reiterated, the best we can all hope for is to simply not be there for that fight at all.
 

Bassbob

Ronin
No, no, that is not what I was suggesting, at all. It was not what I wrote, and furthermore, it was never my intent to imply that it was.

My intent with the firearms training comparison was just as I wrote the words: only to highlight that in the vast majority of our training, we are not giving the other half of the equation its necessary due. That, specifically, in the real-world, our opponent(s) always get(s) a say.

With competitive and non-cooperative drills, we start to approach that end of the curve, and with Force-on-Force type training, we get even closer to the asymptote.

But even so, it still never saves us from being unlucky.

As @10mmLife noted and @KI4WTF reiterated, the best we can all hope for is to simply not be there for that fight at all.
True enough.
 

HayesGreener

Professional
I have been the target of a gun grab on the street in my younger years, as have some of my fellow officers. It is a life-changing, religious experience to survive it. I still get chills thinking about it. Whatever your defensive technique, the response must be immediate, explosive, and extremely violent, with follow through. If you are in a struggle for your gun, you are in a struggle for your life and both hands are going to be engaged. You learn that distance is your friend. If possible, focus on retaining the gun, disengage, and get distance between you and the attacker so you have options. In theory a blade may help if you have the skills, but time is short and cutting your attacker does not mean he is out of the fight. Although a blade or a tactical pen stuck in his eye socket will give him something else to think about. Your best defense is to avoid being in a position where the attacker can get hands on it. Keep your body between a potential opponent and your gun. Level III holsters will slow them down but are not fool proof. Gun grabs are one of the reasons I am not in favor of open carry for non-uniformed personnel.
 

TSiWRX

Professional
^ From that very sobering post above, I'd like to take it towards the civilian side, where some think that it's "just not going to happen" to the average concealed-carrier (as in XDTalk member fredj338 demonstrated in the following old thread - https://www.xdtalk.com/threads/gun-grab.265061/page-2#post-4729648):


Certainly, it's much, much less likely - it's certainly not like we're hearing of this in the news all the time - but it's definitely a possibility, however remote, and given the potential consequences of a successful attempt (i.e. what @HayesGreener wrote of above, that it is a lethal threat), it is a consideration to be taken seriously.
 
They feel great in the hand and the blade is really short. It's more of a cutting/slicing blade. The shorter blade has less of a chance of getting snagged on clothing and less chance of getting torqued out of your hand like a fulcrum if pushed from the side where a long blade can be moved a lot easier in a struggle.
I just found the exact same knife and sheath for $20.00 less on Amazon.
 
Knife fights, gun grabs, and the like do not happen in a vacuum. Usually you can tell something is up.

Now the attacker may be much bigger, or stronger, or faster, or sadly a combination of the above. They may be able to pull you around like a rag doll, may surge toward you or pull back...

Thus if one carries CCW, and I have for well over 20 years, you need be aware and react instantly... and to do that you need to practice with others that will try to pull that gun, a dummy one (not some 'prop' like Alec Baldwin would use), and learn to feel when your weapon is being snatched and how you can keep it. Do this with bigger guys, younger guys, stronger guys. You will find techniques that work with people the same size as you may very well not work with others. Call it dissimilar training.

I strongly suggest taking to a local Krav Maga or a dojo that is open minded (which is a rarity.) Or if you are on a facebook type forum then put out a post for like minded people who want to work out by doing self defense.

Oh, as for me I still use the Lindell Method(s). I rarely carry a knife.
 
Training will definitely give you an advantage but nothing guarantees you won't get hit, hurt, or killed just like empty hands fighting where in a situation a trained mma fighter will most likely be the victor over a tough street thug but the trained fighter may still get a few lumps or scrapes only the stakes are higher with blades.

Serious training with blades teaches you distance, protecting your vitals, and limb destruction where your goal is not to go for a kill but to disable the threat which is done by attacking the threats hands and limbs with quick slashes while the threat is attacking.

Fighting for you life with a blade is more successful when you're defending your life against an attacker.

The threads article was about using your knife as a secondary backup to someone trying to take your gun which I agree is a better strategy than struggling for control.

The best advise for anyone is to avoid knife fights and any type of physical altercations and let go of egos no matter the training and only engage when all other options are off the table.
So Although I’m still waiting for my revolver holster I got my Ka-Bar TDI and really like it and yeah the holster is ok but is there other types that are out that are better??
 
So I will say this. I prefer and carry two knives (one strong side and one weak side) that are NOT a fixed blade. I specifically carry a switchblade on each side because they are EXTREMELY easy to deploy during a hands on confrontation (check your local laws first of course). One thing I would NEVER recommend in good conscience is to carry a fixed blade inside your pants. No matter how much you train, the likelihood is cutting yourself before entering the blade into the fight is EXTREMELY high as you’re going to be moving, twisting, and bending over while in the fight. As a volunteer firefighter/EMT I have actually seen this occur to a very skilled martial arts practitioner who had the misfortune of getting into a fight for his firearm coming out of a restaurant. No matter how much you train, once the adrenaline kicks in it’s a whole different ballgame. Consequently I’d recommend on your belt if you’re gonna carry a fixed blade. As for me I’ll stick to my switchblades as backup, but no matter what you choose for a backup make sure to choose wisely. Just my two cents worth.
 
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