Gun Games are not STREET training

[PieterCoetzee]

Let me start by saying I have no issue with Gun Games; but I put them in the same realm as Pickle Ball and Miniature Gulf. If you enjoy them, then have fun, maybe youll even beat the Windmill and get the ball in the clowns nose. Yippee.

Seriously have fun but dont delude yourself into thinking you are training for a real life gun fight. Gunfights arent scripted. You dont get to walk around wearing competition holsters and mag pouches made for speed loads. Chances are you wont be open carrying or wearing spandex (well maybe the spandex???)

Yes gun games value speed; but maybe at too high a cost. In a REAL world gunfight, youll be moving but you probably wont be sprinting through the whole fight. Theres no bonus points for finishing FIRST, only for finishing.

Yes gun games value accuracy; but again at what cost? HITS matter and Face shots end fights, True enough.

Gun Games breed POOR tactics. In Real life there are no walk throughs before a gunfight. There are no see through walls made out netting. IF youre lucky you may know the neighborhood; but you wont know where the cars are parked and if someone left the hose unrolled or a bike on the lawn. Gun Games arent usually scheduled in the snow or pouring rain. REAL fights arent scheduled at all.

Most importantly Gun Games dont have incoming rounds. Nobody tells you ahead of time how many rounds youll need or to save your empty/partial mags. Nobody says blow the dust off your red dot before the buzzer. Gun Games dont teach you the value of slicing the pie on corners, because that takes time. Gun Games dont teach you to be constantly aware of your surroundings, because that kid you thought was innocent might be creeping up behind you with bad intent. In the real world you wont be unloading after shooting stops like you do in a game.

AGAIN enjoy the games if you like

 

[KillerFord1977]

 

[PieterCoetzee]

Maybe you should spend more time trying to get the ball in the clowns nose. You guys claim you are "gun people" and you say you carry for self defense; but you dispute any serious discussion about real world topics, which is fine but maybe could just sit quietly and you might even find that you learn something. Im open to adult discussion when youre ready

 

[Talyn]

are "Gun Games"?

 

[ECS686]

This argument has been around for a quite a while. Most of us quit buying into it.Most people need to work on their shootjng skills before worrying about a gunfight.

The benefit of say USPSA is you learn to run your gun and gear at different angles approaches etc

It is beneficial however the quirk is people sometimes get wrapped up with the speed fairy. That is more of a hinderance than “bad tacticts”

There is a reason laces like Delta has brought in Ben Stoegers, Jerry Barnhart and Rob Leatham over the years to teach outlet shooting.

Matt Pranka retired Delta troop knows a thing or two about tactical shooting.

 

[BruceMc]

Take some of your points and add them to the other post about situational awareness and I think there's a good point. Somewhere. And above all remember cover and concealment are not the same thing.

 

[Magnum50]

What the? Well, that was 5 minutes I'll never get back.

Don't think any regular member of this forum thinks that for a minute. I hope your vented now. lol

 

[PieterCoetzee]

you learn to run your gun and gear at different angles approaches etc

SURE as long as you use the same gun and gear on the street

It is beneficial however the quirk is people sometimes get wrapped up with the speed fairy. That is more of a hinderance than “bad tacticts”

Id suggest that it TEACHES and enforces bad tactics

There is a reason laces like Delta has brought in...

Im betting they dont do that anymore. NOW theyve certainly got enough real world shooters whove actually experienced TWO WAY competition

And above all remember cover and concealment are not the same thing.

Yes THIS

 

[Mr.W.]

when youre ready

I'll let you know. . .

 

[KillerFord1977]

Maybe you should spend more time trying to get the ball in the clowns nose. You guys claim you are "gun people" and you say you carry for self defense; but you dispute any serious discussion about real world topics, which is fine but maybe could just sit quietly and you might even find that you learn something. Im open to adult discussion when youre ready

Serious discussion?

There are and have been a ton of serious discussions on this forum for years. As well as every other forum.
You come in here as a new member and start all these “hypothetical” theatre discussions about your made up soldier of fortune scenarios and you want to state “serious”.

I’m all for serious discussions, zombieland fun guns and new ways to train, but you like to always drop the “people dont shoot back bull” non stop.

Oh, and you attacking folks that train in IDPA or other shooting events as “gun games”. Seriously.

Go back to page one and take about 2 months off and read how serious a lot of folks are on here about guns, tactics and shooting technique. There are a lot of former LEO and Military on here, just like you. So you are not the only experienced former on here with the be it all guru.
Why dont you show us some pics of how you train ? Let see those range drills and shoots you do to stay proficient if you are saying we all do it wrong. Who’s shooting back at you. Oh thats right, paint gun is shooting back. Well isnt that a gun game . Training with proprer instructors from military and leo elite sectors are not “gun games”.

So, Mr PC, walk us thru your proper training. Course of fire. Range set up. Gun set up. How you practice your draw and technique. Enlighten us on how you do it. Enlighten us all on proper Mr PC course of training.

Also, do you currently instruct folks on firearms training? Are you a cert trainer? Do you have a regular base of folks who seek out training with or from you?

 

[ECS686]

Im betting they dont do that anymore. NOW theyve certainly got enough real world shooters whove actually experienced TWO WAY competition

Yes THIS

They still train with a variety of shokters to include Ben Stoegers. They also invite in several UFC fighters as they do race car drivers.

A gunfight is a competitive event with much higher stakes!

I get the comped out raceguns and such but there is nothing wrong with wringing out your gear gear. I have shot a lot of matches woth my duty gun and gear or what I carry off duty.

I believe it was Larry Vickers that once said show me a B class shooter and that is where someone in his unit would fall in and they are the best combat shooters in the world.

The issue with competition shootjng is them people get morphed into it and silly culture that seems to surround it

 

[OldGrunt]

Serious discussion?

There are and have been a ton of serious discussions on this forum for years. As well as every other forum.
You come in here as a new member and start all these “hypothetical” theatre discussions about your made up soldier of fortune scenarios and you want to state “serious”.

I’m all for serious discussions, zombieland fun guns and new ways to train, but you like to always drop the “people dont shoot back bull” non stop.

Oh, and you attacking folks that train in IDPA or other shooting events as “gun games”. Seriously.

Go back to page one and take about 2 months off and read how serious a lot of folks are on here about guns, tactics and shooting technique. There are a lot of former LEO and Military on here, just like you. So you are not the only experienced former on here with the be it all guru.
Why dont you show us some pics of how you train ? Let see those range drills and shoots you do to stay proficient if you are saying we all do it wrong. Who’s shooting back at you. Oh thats right, paint gun is shooting back. Well isnt that a gun game . Training with proprer instructors from military and leo elite sectors are not “gun games”.

So, Mr PC, walk us thru your proper training. Course of fire. Range set up. Gun set up. How you practice your draw and technique. Enlighten us on how you do it. Enlighten us all on proper Mr PC course of training.

Also, do you currently instruct folks on firearms training? Are you a cert trainer? Do you have a regular base of folks who seek out training with or from you?

Some of the same questions I've had (and others)!

 

[bc22wm]

Let me start by saying I have no issue with Gun Games; but I put them in the same realm as Pickle Ball and Miniature Gulf. If you enjoy them, then have fun, maybe youll even beat the Windmill and get the ball in the clowns nose. Yippee.

Seriously have fun but dont delude yourself into thinking you are training for a real life gun fight. Gunfights arent scripted. You dont get to walk around wearing competition holsters and mag pouches made for speed loads. Chances are you wont be open carrying or wearing spandex (well maybe the spandex???)

Yes gun games value speed; but maybe at too high a cost. In a REAL world gunfight, youll be moving but you probably wont be sprinting through the whole fight. Theres no bonus points for finishing FIRST, only for finishing.

Yes gun games value accuracy; but again at what cost? HITS matter and Face shots end fights, True enough.

Gun Games breed POOR tactics. In Real life there are no walk throughs before a gunfight. There are no see through walls made out netting. IF youre lucky you may know the neighborhood; but you wont know where the cars are parked and if someone left the hose unrolled or a bike on the lawn. Gun Games arent usually scheduled in the snow or pouring rain. REAL fights arent scheduled at all.

Most importantly Gun Games dont have incoming rounds. Nobody tells you ahead of time how many rounds youll need or to save your empty/partial mags. Nobody says blow the dust off your red dot before the buzzer. Gun Games dont teach you the value of slicing the pie on corners, because that takes time. Gun Games dont teach you to be constantly aware of your surroundings, because that kid you thought was innocent might be creeping up behind you with bad intent. In the real world you wont be unloading after shooting stops like you do in a game.

AGAIN enjoy the games if you like

Games are better than sitting around watch cat videos. (You have no idea how much that hurts to say) Just out of curiosity, do you work at trying to annoy everyone or dose it just comes naturally? Never mind I'll not be listening anymore. Bye, bye, buy bonds. FYI. I know I'm an SOB. I started with a natural talent and then worked on it for years.

 

[PieterCoetzee]

There are and have been a ton of serious discussions on this forum for years.

Yes Ive seen some and Ive seen some derailed by guys who didnt want to particpate

start all these “hypothetical” theatre discussions

Why cant we learn for hypothetical discussions. Im not really sure why you are so oppose to hypothetical scenarios. Maybe you can explain your opposition: but if you insist there are plenty of actual incidents we can discuss, Its just that I wont be bringing up incidents from the 1970s. We face new challenges and a NEW enemy

you like to always drop the “people dont shoot back

Im guessing you mean paper doesnt shoot back It confounds me how easily you can dismiss THAT. Punching holes in paper or dinging steel only shows you can shoot, NOT how you shoot with incoming rounds

you attacking folks that train in IDPA or other shooting events as “gun games”.

To be clear Im not attacking bullet gulf; but it is a game. They give out awards for winners and the players play to win because they "know" the game, many times they are allowed to walk the course before they shoot. There are manufacturer sponsored events AND sponsored players. That sure sounds like a game to me

serious a lot of folks are on here about guns, tactics and shooting technique.

I dont doubt that, I never have. i am however amazed how many ridicule new ideas with no valid argument to support their position

range drills

I have repeatedly said to train for 15 (or better yet 25 meter) head shots with the gun you actually carry. Tactically I also train with Force on Force using simunitions and airsoft for a Two Way range experience. I mentioned that the Video system discussed in a previous thread seemed like it could have some training potential. Of Course that would be hypothetical just like the gun games

No Im not currently teaching (unless you would consider THIS discussion). I did teach at the MP school and for my PD.

Whats concerning is, I post something and it seems the pretty girls, see my name read only a few lines then make plans to pull the chair out as I sit down. I really have trouble believing some bother to read what Ive said before deciding they hate it Hmmm lemme see if i can find and example. Oh wait how'bout this: "Never mind I'll not be listening anymore".

I dont mind discord, and neither should anyone as long as the discussion can be supported. Now I know this is a lot as some here have complained that my posts are too long; but hopefully someone will bother to read all of it before planning to pull the chair out.

 

[BassCliff]

Hi,

Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[PieterCoetzee]

Hi,

View attachment 112005




Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

Now THATS funny

 

[PieterCoetzee]

This argument has been around for a quite a while. Most of us quit buying into it.Most people need to work on their shootjng skills before worrying about a gunfight.

The benefit of say USPSA is you learn to run your gun and gear at different angles approaches etc

Hmmmm I think we may have found some common ground.

I agree that the games provide shooting experience and I support that but my concern is that many/most participants are under the impression that it is a substitute for gun fight training.

As to the gun/gear issue, we have already addressed that. Competition guns are cool; but like an INDY car, they arent ready for the street. The different angles are good but not when speed is more important and not when walls are made of netting so the target can be seen before turning the corner

 

[ECS686]

Hmmmm I think we may have found some common ground.

I agree that the games provide shooting experience and I support that but my concern is that many/most participants are under the impression that it is a substitute for gun fight training.

As to the gun/gear issue, we have already addressed that. Competition guns are cool; but like an INDY car, they arent ready for the street. The different angles are good but not when speed is more important and not when walls are made of netting so the target can be seen before turning the corner

On race guns while there is night and day difference on running a cyclic USPSA stage where defensive use you won’t (or shouldn’t) go quite that fast (why mag capacity and high bore axis are over stated)
A lot of “race gun” stuff is being pushed as necessities for defensive use.
folks can debate the merits of it but I never thought 30 years ago we would se pistol optics get pushed as much it has become a church (remember when PPC Revolvers and USPSA open were it)
Comps seem to be pushed on micro carry guns which personally not sure I would ever need it for recoil of the powerful 9mm or even a 380 but I always ate my vegetables like Mom said to!

When I shoot a match I only worry about me and A zones or down zero’s and was my time relevent to that LAPD SWAT standard of half second splits then again I run normal earth people (before comps came out)

Here is a great podcast from Lee Weems who I have trained with a few times with his own venue (First Person Safety and he is a Rangemaster staff instructor and taught my RM IDC course) and I highly respect him as he is a wealth of knowledge and one heck of a great guy.

Lee addresses some negative comments from a privious interview the first 5 minutes but the conversation starts around the 5 min mark

 

[SimonRL]

Serious discussion?

There are and have been a ton of serious discussions on this forum for years. As well as every other forum.
You come in here as a new member and start all these “hypothetical” theatre discussions about your made up soldier of fortune scenarios and you want to state “serious”.

I’m all for serious discussions, zombieland fun guns and new ways to train, but you like to always drop the “people dont shoot back bull” non stop.

Oh, and you attacking folks that train in IDPA or other shooting events as “gun games”. Seriously.

Go back to page one and take about 2 months off and read how serious a lot of folks are on here about guns, tactics and shooting technique. There are a lot of former LEO and Military on here, just like you. So you are not the only experienced former on here with the be it all guru.
Why dont you show us some pics of how you train ? Let see those range drills and shoots you do to stay proficient if you are saying we all do it wrong. Who’s shooting back at you. Oh thats right, paint gun is shooting back. Well isnt that a gun game . Training with proprer instructors from military and leo elite sectors are not “gun games”.

So, Mr PC, walk us thru your proper training. Course of fire. Range set up. Gun set up. How you practice your draw and technique. Enlighten us on how you do it. Enlighten us all on proper Mr PC course of training.

Also, do you currently instruct folks on firearms training? Are you a cert trainer? Do you have a regular base of folks who seek out training with or from you?

Let me start out by saying I have no problem with windbags and know-it-alls, but blathering on about the same old crap time-and-time again, because one sadly doesn’t have the skills to realize when one is being a complete boor, or worse, simply can’t read a room, is a situation up with which I cannot put.

When one goes on and 90% of the room shows their displeasure, yet the boor latches on to the 10% who tangentially agree with various points of the discussion, it is perhaps, time to reevaluate. Time to think maybe I’ve truly beat this dead horse to death. Time to consider stepping outside of one’s ossified perspective and looking for value in many of the cogent points brought up by the considerable - and considerate - knowledge base on this forum.

There is a significant difference between discussing/debating and pontificating. If you don’t think you’re that guy, consider the “crazy neighbor” corollary. If you don’t have a crazy neighbor on your street, it’s you.

 

[Musashi]

Posts after consecutive posts by the same person. Most forums have rules regarding "taking turns." This isn't discussion, it is the need to be seen and to be right about everything. Many here are old enough and do have experience and really don't need to be pummeled or told how to live their lives. Are you relevant? Your message to reaction score ratio sez it all.