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Gun Games are not STREET training

I asked a simple question about your type of training, and you answer in a sarcastic manner.
Sorry I didn't know about Simunitions, never heard of this and I was looking for a little clarity, but all I got was lip service.
So, I thank the almighty firearm training wizard for all of his constant input.
 
Wow how many times have I heard THAT. Game stress is not STREET stress. The worse that happens in a game is you dont win. When you dont win on the STREET, somebody sends flowers to your wife. Game Stress is waiting for the roulette wheel to stop. Street stress is waiting for the shooting to STOP. Theres NO Comparison and people who tell you its the same are wrong.
Pieter, my point is that MOST of us have lived our entire lives and our entire shooting experience without EVER having experienced any real stress while handling a firearm and shooting. I am not claiming that gun game stress is the SAME as street stress. It obviously is not. All I am saying is that it is a good thing for MOST of us to get a little exposure to some pressure while shooting, and that the "gun games" are at least an option for accomplishing that exposure.
 
I asked a simple question about your type of training, and you answer in a sarcastic manner.
Sorry I didn't know about Simunitions, never heard of this and I was looking for a little clarity, but all I got was lip service.
So, I thank the almighty firearm training wizard for all of his constant input.
Bro you got sarcasm because of HOW you asked AND because you said you read the entire thread twice. You didnt ask about Simunitions. You didnt bother to google it and then ask for more info. and now you got your feelings hurt

So here I googled it for you: Simunitions is specialized training ammunition used in realistic, force-on-force scenarios to simulate live-fire conditions without the risks associated with real bullets. Its fired from real guns with minor modifications

Oh and youre welcome
 
Pieter, my point is that MOST of us have lived our entire lives and our entire shooting experience without EVER having experienced any real stress while handling a firearm and shooting. I am not claiming that gun game stress is the SAME as street stress. It obviously is not. All I am saying is that it is a good thing for MOST of us to get a little exposure to some pressure while shooting, and that the "gun games" are at least an option for accomplishing that exposure.
Thank you for the explanation. I hear what your saying BUT as I have been trying to explain in this entire thread the Games teach the game. The stress from games is NOT the stress you want and its a mistake to think so. If you bet you house payment on BlackJack, theres the stress of the last card but thats NOT the stress of the last bullet.

If you want stress from shooting at paper, put a picture of your wife and kids next to the head of a target. Do 25 push ups and jumping jacks then grab your pistol and make head shots AND then take the target home to show your wife. Try that for stress BUT its still not Force on Force (well maybe depends on your wife)
 
Simunitions, force on force training and such are all well and good if you can afford it. I can't. Plus I'm old and have health issues. I'm just not up to spending a bunch of money, traveling several days and shooting buckets of expensive ammo to attend fancy classes with top instructors. :rolleyes:
I can, however, strap on my gear, go to my club's action range, practice drawing my gun, shooting and moving, multiple targets and such. That's all I really need.
Pieter, I find your continued insistence that anything less than your training methods are substandard to be absurd. Any training helps. Even if its just standing still and punching holes in paper.
 
if you can afford it.
So try AIRSOFT is a LOT cheaper AND you dont have to go far. Heck some guys do it in their basement
I find your continued insistence that anything less than your training methods are substandard to be absurd. Any training helps. Even if its just standing still and punching holes in paper.
YES any training helps but just any training may not be enough (probably isnt)

Punching holes in paper IS part of what Ive been saying. Have you not seen where I say to practice Head Shot at 15 yards until you can move to 25 yards and start again?
standing still
Standing still will get you killed when the guy(s) in front of you are shooting back. Matt Dillon of Gunsmoke fame aside. Standing still is Hollywood. Anything you do is going to be reactive. Can you react faster than the gun in his hand Before his bullet hits?

Sure start with basic marksmanship then ad movement, even if its just a side step.
 
Ok, here's my take on this thing. i'm almost 72. not the greatest in health but not bad. my wife has dementia bad so for me to take off to go to some school for training is out of the question.

I enjoy shooting, i don't shoot because i fear for my life. i do it for fun. i do carry a gun on me most times even though i don't train with it every day. my right hand has nerve damage from running gas powered equipment all my life and maybe a few motorcycle wrecks helped it. I can't hold a handgun straight out to shoot with one hand, i have to use two. i have the strength but my hand will shake. shooting a rifle i have no problem.

I stay away from places that could be trouble. if i;m in a store and someone comes in shooting, i will do my best to be safe and even eliminate the shooter. if i fail..so be it. i've lived a good life. But i do not go around worrying if i will be shot at today. I HAVE been shot at and i have had a knife pulled on me. many years ago. I didn't even own a gun back then.

What i'm trying to say is NO, i don't train to win a gunfight and don't worry about being in one. I just like to shoot, i always loved hunting but can't do that anymore unless i can be back at the house shortly. So i have a ton of things worse to worry about than being in a gunfight
 
Thank you for the explanation.....
You're welcome. Again, I emphasize that I'm not claiming they're exactly the same. Just that an adrenaline dump is an adrenaline dump, no matter what the trigger. That and the fact that MOST of us have not been exposed to one while handling and shooting a firearm (I don't think that a fit of "buck fever" while hunting counts.)
If you want stress from shooting at paper, put a picture of your wife and kids next to the head of a target. Do 25 push ups and jumping jacks then grab your pistol and make head shots AND then take the target home to show your wife. Try that for stress BUT its still not Force on Force (well maybe depends on your wife)
I'm a little too old and stove up to do force on force training. The picture on a "hostage" target setup is a good idea. Maybe paste my ex-wife's pic over the facial area of the perp target. THAT would add stress for sure! LOL.
 
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Access to Force on Force & Simunition is expensive and very hard to come by.
Here in my big city area of 8.5 million people there is only 1, yes, 1 FvF training center open to the public. Its expensive to rent by the hour, the simu guns cost to rent and it is $1 per round used of simunition. bottom line, it's not cheap and it is out of the realm for almost all gun owners. very cost prohibitive.
-Simunitions IS A GUN GAME !!! that sort of training is a game. trying to be realistic as possible, but if it's not an actual real life shooting, it is PRACTICE = Game
-Training for competitions, shoot n move, run and get heart rate up or even just standing punching paper IS training.
-Not all have the ability to train FvF. whether is cost, mobility issues or other. FvF is not the be all training.
you of all people apparently understand that most situations do not lead to FvF. the attacker and you may not even come in physical contact with each other. at all. some do lead to physical contact. some dont. equal opportunity here, so training to pull your pistol and shoot IS training.
- patrol officers rarely retrain for FvF, shootings or even quals for their pistol after the academy. sure the specialty units do, but most officers rarely train for gun battles or quals. Its expensive to retrain or train officers to be off the patrol and do FvF or shoot scenarios. thus it rarely happens. thus it is the specialty team. thus it holds true for most gun owners as well.
TIME & EXPENSE.
- training whether it is punching paper, shoot n move, conceal/cover, IDPA, failure drills, Mozambique, 3 gun or other time spent with your firearm is better than it sitting in a safe. muscle memory is taught for driving a car, flying a plane, using a laptop or using a firearm. practice with a firearm teaches muscle memory. that is quality training.

A lot of members here comment on your insistence on a certain type of training. this thread is that insistence.
it is valuable training but it is not the perfect situation for everyone. it is not the perfect situation for police depts. it is not the perfect training for a lot of things or reasons.
to get to FvF or even head shots at distance, you have to practice basic and medium skill levels first to even get to those training situations. some take different paths to get to that training. most of the training is very adequate to defend oneself or others without resorting to your insistence on methods. even a hostage paper drill is specialized for certain teams in law enforcement. your avg patrol officers does not even train for that shot. I know 6 active duty officers of various rank in depts from very large to small and they have NEVER practiced a hostage shot. the only ones that have are part of SRT or SWAT. so once again, FvF or hostage shots are out of the normal course of training realm.

Range time with a box of ammo is within a lot of folks budget and time. Course of study, private lessons and training combined with advanced training is not. there are those of us that are fortunate to be able to do all that and more. there are those of us that cannot. your methods are not the definitive guide to training. they are available to citizens, but they are not cheap and are time consuming. I've done a lot of training and even have the ability this fall to shoot from a helicopter. that is $$$ and not within the scope of most folks, yet I dont tell folks they are wrong for not learning to shoot from a helicopter. if things were cheap, then every car would be engineered like NASCAR and F1 and every gun owner would be SRT trained. not happening on either instance.

Training for a real-life gun fight or street fight is shooting paper, it is IDPA, it is failure drills, it is 1000 different things. You have to train with your pistol from step 1 to be mentally and physically prepared to defend oneself. i have not done FvF in 30 years. I still know some of the technique, but that doesn't mean I'm not prepared to use my pistol if needed. I don't need FvF to learn to draw, shoot and defend myself. doesn't mean it's wrong. competition holsters and pouches for speed loads have very valuable training. it allows the shooter to determine what works for their needs when it comes to daily wear. needing to get to a mag quick for a reload transcends into what one wears daily. it drives thought to how and where one can have a mag to ease of access if I need a reload. training drives all sorts of mental guidance on firearms. holster type, gun type, ammo type, clothing type, etc, etc. folks that learn more adapt to what works for them in their situation. training drives that thought. even paper punching.

you have this perception that we must always be training and walking around as if we are in combat.
we do not. that is not reality and that is not daily life. everyone adapts to their situation and lifestyle. their lifestyle, needs and fears are not those of yours. far from it. you state you are offering advice, but almost always it is criticism. folks do things the way they want to do things. this isnt the military and a law enforcement agency. we have choices on how we train, what we wear and what we use. a lot of it doesnt sit well with you, and that's fine, but get off your insistence on FvF and head shots. thats cool for you to do all the time, but that's not most folks do. I can do them to your specs, but that took a long time and $$$$$. time and equipment.
so drop your insistence on methods and putting down those that dont do the methods you state so modestly are real life training and nothing else.

As for pictures. pictures are worth a thousand words, so I like my pictures. it can quickly give a paragraph in one pic. ;)

1780941822429.gif
 
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Access to Force on Force & Simunition is expensive and very hard to come by.
Here in my big city area of 8.5 million people there is only 1, yes, 1 FvF training center open to the public. Its expensive to rent by the hour, the simu guns cost to rent and it is $1 per round used of simunition. bottom line, it's not cheap and it is out of the realm for almost all gun owners. very cost prohibitive.
-Simunitions IS A GUN GAME !!! that sort of training is a game. trying to be realistic as possible, but if it's not an actual real life shooting, it is PRACTICE = Game
-Training for competitions, shoot n move, run and get heart rate up or even just standing punching paper IS training.
-Not all have the ability to train FvF. whether is cost, mobility issues or other. FvF is not the be all training.
you of all people apparently understand that most situations do not lead to FvF. the attacker and you may not even come in physical contact with each other. at all. some do lead to physical contact. some dont. equal opportunity here, so training to pull your pistol and shoot IS training.
- patrol officers rarely retrain for FvF, shootings or even quals for their pistol after the academy. sure the specialty units do, but most officers rarely train for gun battles or quals. Its expensive to retrain or train officers to be off the patrol and do FvF or shoot scenarios. thus it rarely happens. thus it is the specialty team. thus it holds true for most gun owners as well.
TIME & EXPENSE.
- training whether it is punching paper, shoot n move, conceal/cover, IDPA, failure drills, Mozambique, 3 gun or other time spent with your firearm is better than it sitting in a safe. muscle memory is taught for driving a car, flying a plane, using a laptop or using a firearm. practice with a firearm teaches muscle memory. that is quality training.

A lot of members here comment on your insistence on a certain type of training. this thread is that insistence.
it is valuable training but it is not the perfect situation for everyone. it is not the perfect situation for police depts. it is not the perfect training for a lot of things or reasons.
to get to FvF or even head shots at distance, you have to practice basic and medium skill levels first to even get to those training situations. some take different paths to get to that training. most of the training is very adequate to defend oneself or others without resorting to your insistence on methods. even a hostage paper drill is specialized for certain teams in law enforcement. your avg patrol officers does not even train for that shot. I know 6 active duty officers of various rank in depts from very large to small and they have NEVER practiced a hostage shot. the only ones that have are part of SRT or SWAT. so once again, FvF or hostage shots are out of the normal course of training realm.

Range time with a box of ammo is within a lot of folks budget and time. Course of study, private lessons and training combined with advanced training is not. there are those of us that are fortunate to be able to do all that and more. there are those of us that cannot. your methods are not the definitive guide to training. they are available to citizens, but they are not cheap and are time consuming. I've done a lot of training and even have the ability this fall to shoot from a helicopter. that is $$$ and not within the scope of most folks, yet I dont tell folks they are wrong for not learning to shoot from a helicopter. if things were cheap, then every car would be engineered like NASCAR and F1 and every gun owner would be SRT trained. not happening on either instance.

Training for a real-life gun fight or street fight is shooting paper, it is IDPA, it is failure drills, it is 1000 different things. You have to train with your pistol from step 1 to be mentally and physically prepared to defend oneself. i have not done FvF in 30 years. I still know some of the technique, but that doesn't mean I'm not prepared to use my pistol if needed. I don't need FvF to learn to draw, shoot and defend myself. doesn't mean it's wrong. competition holsters and pouches for speed loads have very valuable training. it allows the shooter to determine what works for their needs when it comes to daily wear. needing to get to a mag quick for a reload transcends into what one wears daily. it drives thought to how and where one can have a mag to ease of access if I need a reload. training drives all sorts of mental guidance on firearms. holster type, gun type, ammo type, clothing type, etc, etc. folks that learn more adapt to what works for them in their situation. training drives that thought. even paper punching.

you have this perception that we must always be training and walking around as if we are in combat.
we do not. that is not reality and that is not daily life. everyone adapts to their situation and lifestyle. their lifestyle, needs and fears are not those of yours. far from it. you state you are offering advice, but almost always it is criticism. folks do things the way they want to do things. this isnt the military and a law enforcement agency. we have choices on how we train, what we wear and what we use. a lot of it doesnt sit well with you, and that's fine, but get off your insistence on FvF and head shots. thats cool for you to do all the time, but that's not most folks do. I can do them to your specs, but that took a long time and $$$$$. time and equipment.
so drop your insistence on methods and putting down those that dont do the methods you state so modestly are real life training and nothing else.

As for pictures. pictures are worth a thousand words, so I like my pictures. it can quickly give a paragraph in one pic. ;)

View attachment 112196
I, for one, would like to see some "real" proof of Pete's training. We have numerous older members here who post up their targets from their range excursions, some post up very good pictures of their times at the range, and some even post up videos of their range days. A lot of members post pictures of their personal firearms. I'd like to see some proof of Pete's "practice what I preach" training. Not something he pulls off the internet.
 
I, for one, would like to see some "real" proof of Pete's training. We have numerous older members here who post up their targets from their range excursions, some post up very good pictures of their times at the range, and some even post up videos of their range days. A lot of members post pictures of their personal firearms. I'd like to see some proof of Pete's "practice what I preach" training. Not something he pulls off the internet.

Ok, I’ll go first. This is from my local clubs April action match. Excuse the hi vis shirt, I was on call and had just gotten off work. Like Pieter said you can see through the walls and I got to walk the course first so it’s nothing like an actual street fight…I KNOW THAT… But it’s still trigger time and to me that’s still training.

 
Ok, I’ll go first. This is from my local clubs April action match. Excuse the hi vis shirt, I was on call and had just gotten off work. Like Pieter said you can see through the walls and I got to walk the course first so it’s nothing like an actual street fight…I KNOW THAT… But it’s still trigger time and to me that’s still training.


I'm only interested in Pete proving what he talks a lot about. He's made a lot of claims about himself, not just on this subject, with no real proof.
 
I, for one, would like to see some "real" proof of Pete's training. We have numerous older members here who post up their targets from their range excursions, some post up very good pictures of their times at the range, and some even post up videos of their range days. A lot of members post pictures of their personal firearms. I'd like to see some proof of Pete's "practice what I preach" training. Not something he pulls off the internet.
Hows THIS and for what its worth I have posted it before; but some here seem to ignore much of what I post. So for you guys with memory issues, here is a qualification course target. Range varied from 3 feet to 25 yards. The two hits in the neck were the "2 in the body and 1 in the head" drill. I cropped the pic but I scored 100. I saved the picture because the Sargent had a hissy fit. He said it didnt look good so I asked which of his stripes was for being an art critic?
1780952170261.png


I cant speak for where you live or even what you think your local PD standards are; but we qualified 4 times a year: DAYLIGHT, NIGHTFIRE (with flashlight, red/blues flashing, street lights, and minimal lighting), Bean Bag shotgun, and Patrol Rifle. Off duty was separate and twice a year (Day and Night) for each off duty gun. We shot in COLD and Hot weather, Rain and Snow. Only thunder storms paused training. We had an indoor range with moving targets, which honestly were rarely used; but we did move; if only side stepping to "get off the X". We also set up "walls" for room clearing. We eventually phased from Simunitions to Airsoft, I suspect because of cost; but also because some guys got upset because everyone could see the paint when they got hit.

Simunitions IS expensive but Airsoft is cheap and you dont have to travel. Im not sure where the confusion came but Force on Force with Sims or Airsoft is separate from "Hands On" training. Force on Force is two or more guys facing off with guns NOT punching and takedowns. You wanna call it a game, OK, just remember in this game theres a pain penalty for loosing. OMG its also might use hypothetical scenarios...

Im gonna say this, even though I suspect, some of you have stopped reading, sure pulling the trigger is training where its combat shooting or just fun plinking BUT dont delude yourself because you poke holes in paper that its training for the Street. Its a start but its hardly sufficient. I have NEVER said the gun games are bad. Seriously enjoy them if you like. Just because you watched Band of Brothers doesnt make you a paratrooper and the last time you made a sand castle doesnt mean you can understand hitting the beach on D Day. IPSC, IDPA, and the rest simply arent the way things work in real life. Im NOT saying its not training, it is (I never said
walking around as if we are in combat.
Well if you dont think theres a threat WHY are you carrying a pistol? Why not just ride your unicorn and eat ice cream with sprinkles? Look at the world. Theres a New Threat. Maybe it hasnt reached you yet but its there. Try watching the news for something besides sports and weather. People think they are safe only to get attacked and killed BUT you do what you want
it wasnt); its just not training for anything but the game.
 
Ok mr.coetzee. im gonna need yer address. I got some pills to send you that will mellow you out. Youll stop worrying about gettin kilt in the streets. When i get edgy i take one and its like far out man. Youll thank me later. And yeah i know this post has all kinds of mistakes. I be doin it on the phone
 
I'm only interested in Pete proving what he talks a lot about. He's made a lot of claims about himself, not just on this subject, with no real proof.
Heres another one, I typically dont bring targets home; but just for you maybe I will. This one was for fun, just to see if I could do it and if Im being honest, it wasnt the first target of the day. That was my Off Duty gun, a Glock 35, with a 357Sig barrel and a Trigicon RMR.
1780955334249.jpeg

I shot that pistol out to 200 yards making bodyshots.


You know Im fairly confident nothing I could sow you would satisfy you but heres the Lion I shot in RSA
1780956003706.jpeg

We were tracking her; because she had gone rogue. We were on her trail when she snuck around and came up on our rear. I made a hasty shot at 20 yards...and thanks to President Obama not having a clue about game keeping, she cant be imported to the US


These are pics from last weeks Pig hunt. My buddy had never hunted before. He used a 6.5 Creedmore
1780956624962.png


Me in my Roland Tembo "look" using a BIG Double
1780956651965.png
 
OK so do you really want information from someone who has doubts?

I presented the information and then I got slammed by guys who didnt like it and Im guessing didnt bother to read the points. Thats like enrolling in a class that you never attend but being pissed that you failed Please we are all supposed to be adults here. AND lets be clear I never resorted to name calling

The stuff I put out is tested in the real world. I didnt make this shite up, I lived it.

You guys can accept or or not but Im not gonna beg anyone.....and now you can bet someone will get upset about this

I'm not arguing with you, but your reaction(s) to replies in this thread have been pretty damn sharp, to either kind of reply.

But, I'll just sit back and watch from here on.......
 
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