Certified Silly Goose
Elite
Not just guys. You know how many damn pink and purple P22's and Wranglers and ears and such I've had to buy over the years for my female students? (and not just the youth students)
I don’t get it.
- Thread starter Shibadog
- Start date
last2brake
Master Class
Hmmph...I would NEVER buy a pink gun.
(Unless my wife orders me to)
Wait, krap, I gotta be even more honest....I just remembered...I bought my mom one before the turn-of-the century.
But other than the pink guns I bought, I would never buy a pink gun. 'Cuz I'm a macho guy. If my wife allows it.
(Unless my wife orders me to)
Wait, krap, I gotta be even more honest....I just remembered...I bought my mom one before the turn-of-the century.
But other than the pink guns I bought, I would never buy a pink gun. 'Cuz I'm a macho guy. If my wife allows it.
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Certified Silly Goose
Elite
Been there, dude. Been there. Whatever it takes to get them to the range.
Certified Silly Goose
Elite
Speaking macho manly-man gun owners... At my LGS my dealer once called one of his regulars and left him a voicemail informing him that his name got pulled in a drawing and won a brand new Glock 17. I was like, "Damn, how do I get in this drawing? Why am I just finding out about this?"
Dealer goes, "No, he asked me to call him and leave him that voicemail, so his wife wouldn't question him" Dealer knew his job, and did it perfectly.
We are a brotherhood.
Dealer goes, "No, he asked me to call him and leave him that voicemail, so his wife wouldn't question him" Dealer knew his job, and did it perfectly.
We are a brotherhood.
Annihilator
Hellion
I was issued a HK MP5 and we also used some Colt 9mm SMGs in my agency here’s the backstory.
LE ran a lot of 9mm rifles (actually short barreled SMGs) for years because the (what we know now was exaggerated) fear of over penetration in buildings WTC. So LE went back to 5.56 AR stuff pretty much in general in waves since the Bank of Hollywood shooting.
There was always civilian interest in 9mm AR stuff but it really took off about 10 years ago especially with USPSA and IDPA opening up decisions to it.
All that said from experience running quals, training and using SMG here’s the pros/cons
Con: AR pattern 9mm SUCK. Especially the Colt magazine they are hard to seat and if you drop a mag it spits out at least half the rounds. It is not reliable with most hollow points.
Yours migh run fine but do a coulle day or week class shooting 1500 rounds you will see! You can’t base a 100-300 round range session and stamp it as good
The Glock mag AR’s are better but even those are EEH!
MP5 style or the Sig MPX or CZ Scorpion (CZ is pretty similar to an MP5) is the best running ones
It’s a pistol round while you can shoot accurately out to 100 yards it’s still a pistol round! I trained with some FBI SEAT teams several times in my career and they got away from MO 5’s and went to M4’s around 2010
Pro: Ammo is cheap and comparable if you carry a 9mm handgun, easy to shoot
Where a OOc shines is for someone that wants something for home defense but wants something more than a 22. It’s easy to shoot, holds lots of rounds easy to put a red dot on etc.
All that said people can do what they want but the only PPC I have is a Marlin 357 rifle and Lever Actions are about the only non rifle cartridge Centerfire cartridge long arms I’m interested in these days.
LE ran a lot of 9mm rifles (actually short barreled SMGs) for years because the (what we know now was exaggerated) fear of over penetration in buildings WTC. So LE went back to 5.56 AR stuff pretty much in general in waves since the Bank of Hollywood shooting.
There was always civilian interest in 9mm AR stuff but it really took off about 10 years ago especially with USPSA and IDPA opening up decisions to it.
All that said from experience running quals, training and using SMG here’s the pros/cons
Con: AR pattern 9mm SUCK. Especially the Colt magazine they are hard to seat and if you drop a mag it spits out at least half the rounds. It is not reliable with most hollow points.
Yours migh run fine but do a coulle day or week class shooting 1500 rounds you will see! You can’t base a 100-300 round range session and stamp it as good
The Glock mag AR’s are better but even those are EEH!
MP5 style or the Sig MPX or CZ Scorpion (CZ is pretty similar to an MP5) is the best running ones
It’s a pistol round while you can shoot accurately out to 100 yards it’s still a pistol round! I trained with some FBI SEAT teams several times in my career and they got away from MO 5’s and went to M4’s around 2010
Pro: Ammo is cheap and comparable if you carry a 9mm handgun, easy to shoot
Where a OOc shines is for someone that wants something for home defense but wants something more than a 22. It’s easy to shoot, holds lots of rounds easy to put a red dot on etc.
All that said people can do what they want but the only PPC I have is a Marlin 357 rifle and Lever Actions are about the only non rifle cartridge Centerfire cartridge long arms I’m interested in these days.
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HayesGreener
Ronin
I miss my MP5
We ran ours hard and I was issued the same one for 10 years. I can’t remember any ever having a jam or any parts breakage. That roller action is hard to beat.
HayesGreener
Ronin
I was team commander in 1985 and bought 16 of them to equip the team. We paid 1500 each. I could have boight one for myself but that was a lot of money in 1985. They just retired them in 2023 and they were all in working order. I couldn't begin to estimate how many rounds went through them in training over 40 years. They just keep on ticking. In OSI reserve I did a lot of protection details and always asked for an MP5. Next to the 1911, the most serviceable and accurate firearms I ever encountered. I just wish they had produced it in 45.
Certified Silly Goose
Elite
You really can't go wrong with any of HK's products. Or, as I like to call them, the Smith & Wesson of Germany
Off the
It. Am eyeing a P30L in LEM since they opened up 9mm to carry
subject of PCC’s but I run a HK 45 with a LEM for duty and the more I shoot it the more I really really like
It. Am eyeing a P30L in LEM since they opened up 9mm to carry
Certified Silly Goose
Elite
I carried a P30SK for yeeaaarrrs. I loved it. It's one flaw is that it was too bulky and heavy, especially in the summer. (This is why I chose the Shield Plus over it). But the P30 platform is just solid. REALLY solid. Like reinforced-bridge-concrete-solid. You could probably build an entire house using it as a framing hammer, and the gun would still be fine after. You're going to love it. Accurate as all hell, too.
Oh, and if you own a VP9, the mags are interchangeable. Nice little bonus there.
UC_Guy 1971
Master Class
Our experiences vary. On a pistol I could truly extend my range using a dot.
Certified Silly Goose
Elite
No doubt. But kids these days think technology is a substitute for learning the fundamentals, discipline, and practice. They need to learn to use iron sights first. They gotta crawl before they walk. And they don't want to do that. They want to jump right in, looking all tacticool, and skip over the growing pains.
If you're a 40+ with 20+ years experience shooting, yeah, get the damn optic if it helps. Especially as our vision starts to go downhill. You earned it.
Last time I was at the range there was a kid with some kind of gun that looked like it cost more than my car (and probably weighed as much too). Put his target out 15 feet and it looked like it was hit with a shotgun when he was done. I wanted to slap him and put him in the corner to think about what he did.
UC_Guy 1971
Master Class
Ok, just for background I live in the country, nearest neighbor is a few hundred yards away. Second, I’m well on my 75th trip around the sun and started shooting and hunting 68 years ago, so I’m not new to firearms. So yesterday I’m in the local toy shop seeing what they have that I can’t live without. There on the rack is an AR 9mm carbine, complete with optical sight, vertical foregrip and flashlight. Two young bucks are ‘oohing” and “aahhing” and generally drooling all over this thing. I picked it up and the darn thing has got to weigh 7.5 or 8 lbs
. They also haa Henry Homestreader in 9, also a fairly chunky monkey ( though a good bit lighter than the AR). Also on the rack was an AR15A2, a mini 14, a mini 30, an M1 .30 carbine (original Inland) and a 45/70 guide gun, ALL of which are lighter swing faster, are similar in size AND pack between 3 and 9 times the power of the 9mm. If you want/need a rifle, why would you not want rifle power? I know 9 is cheap to shoot, but 9 even from a 16.5 tube is a pretty weak sister even compared to a little .223, much less to a serious rifle cartridge. I know I’m not one of the Kewl Kids, and I’ve no interest in playing Rambo and doing mag dumps. but If I need a rifle, then I WANT a Rifle. Frankly I’d take the M1, the GuideGun or any of the others WAY before I’d grab any 9 mm “Rifle”. So, other than a range toy, why a 9mm rifle? Must be a reason but I sure don’t get it. For a SD firearm, or even a gun for around the farm for varmint control why would you want less power, less range and at an distance less accuracy?
So needing a rifle? I appreciate shooting long distances. I do. For that you probably do need a rifle, not a pistol caliber carbine. However, when shooting a 9mm round from a 16-inch barrel, the power and velocity of the bullet can be significantly higher than when fired from a shorter barrel. Generally, a standard 9mm round fired from a typical 4 to 5-inch barrel achieves a velocity of around 1,100 to 1,200 feet per second (fps).
With a 16-inch barrel, you can expect the velocity to increase, potentially reaching around 1,300 to 1,400 fps, depending on the specific load and bullet type. This increase in barrel length allows for more complete combustion of the powder, resulting in higher velocity and energy.
In terms of energy, the kinetic energy of a bullet can be calculated using the formula:
Kinetic Energy (KE)=21mv2
where m is the mass of the bullet in kilograms and v is the velocity in meters per second. A typical 9mm bullet weighs about 7.45 grams (0.00745 kg).
For example, if we take a velocity of 1,350 fps (approximately 411 meters per second), the kinetic energy would be:
KE=21×0.00745kg×(411m/s)2≈0.5×0.00745×168921≈0.629J
This results in approximately 629 Joules of energy, which is significantly higher than the energy produced from a shorter barrel.
For anything I am going to do, a PCC would be more than adequate. I'm not going to hunt with it (I have revolvers for that
). On duty or off I tend to base a lot of my choices on police stats. So.................Police shootouts often vary significantly in terms of distance, and studies have shown that the majority of these engagements occur at relatively close ranges.
Key points regarding the distances involved in police shootouts:
- Close Range Engagements: A significant percentage of police shootings occur at distances of 0 to 10 feet. This range often includes situations where officers are responding to immediate threats or engaging in close-quarters confrontations.
- Short Range (10 to 25 yards): Many police shootouts happen within 10 to 25 yards. This range is common in urban environments where encounters can occur in confined spaces, such as alleys or buildings.
- Medium Range (25 to 50 yards): Engagements at this distance are less common but still significant. Officers may find themselves in situations where they need to engage suspects from a distance, such as during a pursuit or when responding to a barricaded subject.
- Long Range (50 yards and beyond): Shootouts at distances greater than 50 yards are relatively rare. These situations may occur in open areas or during specific tactical operations, but they represent a smaller percentage of overall police shooting incidents.
While exact percentages can vary by study and region, a general breakdown based on various analyses of police shooting incidents looks kind of like this:
- 0 to 10 feet: Approximately 30-40%
- 10 to 25 yards: Approximately 30-40%
- 25 to 50 yards: Approximately 15-20%
- 50 yards and beyond: Approximately 5-10%
- Factors Influencing Engagement Distance
- Environment: Urban vs. rural settings can affect how close officers and suspects are when engagements occur.
- Nature of the Incident: High-risk situations, such as active shooter scenarios or armed confrontations, may dictate the distance at which officers engage.
- Tactics and Training: Police training and tactics can also play a role in how officers approach and engage suspects.
That will lead into this segue involving shorter barrels. This is something that is easier to accomplish. With a pistol caliber you still get better performance and you don't have to worry about buffer and spring rate changes affecting cycling. Since I have an AR-9 I'm just 9mm as my primary example of why you might want a AR platform pistol in a pistol caliber.
Burn Rate: The type of powder used in 9mm ammunition is designed to burn efficiently within a certain range of barrel lengths. A 10.5-inch barrel allows for more complete combustion of the powder compared to shorter barrels (e.g., 4-5 inches), which lead to the higher velocities.
Velocity Increase: As mentioned, a longer barrel typically results in higher muzzle velocities. The increase in velocity from a 10.5-inch barrel reach that 1,300 to 1,400 fps speed; depending on the load.
Optimal Barrel Length: While 9mm cartridges can achieve good performance in barrels as short as 4 inches, the 10.5-inch barrel provides a balance between compactness and performance. It allows for a more complete burn of the powder, maximizing the energy transferred to the bullet.
Comparison to Longer Barrels
Diminishing Returns: While longer barrels (e.g., 16 inches) can provide even higher velocities, the increase in performance becomes less pronounced after a certain point. The 10.5-inch barrel is often seen as a sweet spot for maximizing performance without significantly increasing the overall length and weight of the firearm.
Here is where it would really pay off and I would just pay the stamp and get an SBR. A 10.5-inch barrel is still compact enough for maneuverability in close quarters, making it better in tactical applications (active shooter, warrant service, anything dynamic that gives me the two minutes to grab it and my armor
) while still providing the mentioned benefits of a longer barrel.So in conclusion this is why someone might want a pistol caliber carbine in: .380 (yup, for reals .380 ACP), 9mm, .38/.357 mag, .40, 10mm, .45 ACP, .45 Colt, .454 Casull, and probably a few more (especially in a pistol or SBR format).
a 10.5-inch barrel is sufficient to ensure that most of the powder in a 9mm cartridge is burned, leading to increased maximum velocity and energy. This barrel length strikes a good balance between performance and practicality. Also, shooting a 9mm anything in doors tend to cause much less hearing damage. Anyone who has shot a 5.56 AR-15 (especially in a pistol format) will tell you the same. If you go the SBR route, might as well get a can and 9mm suppresses better than a rifle.
In addition I don't own a farm. I actually don't think that I know any legitimate farmers. I don't know what kind of threats you are going to run into on a farm. I live in the hills, outside of a city. I don't have very many neighbors and even then they are a ways away. I haven't seen a varmint here. My biggest threat is rattlesnakes, maybe a mountain lion or a very lost burglar. So, unless I am litterally under fire or there is something else dynamically exigent going down that puts an active threat beyond 75-100 yards (I've shot my AR-9 and my .40 cal. Ruger PC Carbine at 100 yards just to see). My light weight, very manueverable pistol caliber long guns are great (I will add my Rossi R92 among this).
This is my .02¢ only.
HansGruber
SAINT
There’s a MP5 with over half a million logged rounds on it.
Belonged to, of all agencies, NASA.
UC_Guy 1971
Master Class
When I worked Rampart Area, LAPD, the station defense rifles were a quartet of Winchester 94s, in 30-30. I was assigned to prepare a station defense plan. This was in the early 70s, when the Weathermen were attacking police buildings, and we carried S&W Model 15s.
Certified Silly Goose
Elite
You're former LAPD? I gotta ask what you think of the show "The Rookie".