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If you carry for Heavens sake USE IT

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PieterCoetzee

Professional
On June 9th 2026, Officers in Baltimore County Maryland, received a call for a man exposing himself on a hiking trail. Two officers eventually spotted a subject that fit the reported description. As they approached the subject fled and eventually stopped, then turned an fired, striking one officer in the neck twice(?). Officers returned fire but the subject fled again as the second Officer gave first aid to the critically wounded fallen Officer.

The subject then came across a man and women walking on the trail and robbed them, also taking the gun the victim was carrying.....

Officers found the suspect while he was still with the man and woman. Another gun fight began with the suspect using the now stolen gun. The suspect was wounded along with one of the robbery victims.

Thankfully the Officer shot in the neck has been released from the hospital and while his recovery is still ongoing he was able to walk from the hospital. The suspect has been charged with multiple counts of attempted murder and is awaiting being released by Marylands leftist prosecutors.....(sarcasm)



TAKEAWAYS:
1. Head/Neck shots end fights. Had the second Officer not been present to give first aid and call for EMS, the Officer may not have survived.

2. If you carry, for Heavens sake dont be a supply center for bad guys. I dont know the specific details of the robbery following the minutes earlier shooting and even assuming the suspect came upon them with his gun drawn, giving up you gun sure seems like a mistake. Why carry if you arent ready to use your gun? Id rather be the guy that got shot while going for my gun then the one who got shot with my gun.

3. This is far from the first case where people were attacked on hiking trails. If you have a gun be READY to use it!
 
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PieterCoetzee said:
On June 9th 2026, Officers in Baltimore County Maryland, received a call for a man exposing himself on a hiking trail. Two officers eventually spotted a subject that fit the reported description. As they approached the subject fled and eventually stopped, then turned an fired, striking one officer in the neck twice(?). Officers returned fire but the subject fled again as the second Officer gave first aid to the critically wounded fallen Officer.

The subject then came across a man and women walking on the trail and robbed them, also taking the gun the victim was carrying.....

Officers found the suspect while he was still with the man and woman. Another gun fight began with the suspect using the now stolen gun. The suspect was wounded along with one of the robbery victims.

Thankfully the Officer shot in the neck has been released from the hospital and while his recovery is still ongoing he was able to walk from the hospital. The suspect has been charged with multiple counts of attempted murder and is awaiting being released by Marylands leftist prosecutors.....



TAKEAWAYS:
1. Head/Neck shots end fights. Had the second Officer not been present to give first aid and call for EMS, the Officer may not have survived.

2. If you carry, for Heavens sake dont be a supply center for bad guys. I dont know the specific details of the robbery following the minutes earlier shooting and even assuming the suspect came upon them with his gun drawn, giving up you gun sure seems like a mistake. Why carry if you arent ready to use your gun? Id rather be the guy that got shot while going for my gun then the one who got shot with my gun.

3. This is far from the first case where people were attacked on hiking trails. If you have a gun be READY to use it!
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The hiker may have been surprised by the perp who may have already had his gun up and pointed at the hiker. Hiker first contact may have been a gun already up and pointed at him before he even had time to react. Most likely the case.
Ita hard to draw from holster to be quicker than a gun already pointed at you. Folks are quick, but not quicker than a trigger pull
 
KillerFord1977 said:
The hiker may have been surprised by the perp who may have already had his gun up and pointed at the hiker. Hiker first contact may have been a gun already up and pointed at him before he even had time to react. Most likely the case.
Ita hard to draw from holster to be quicker than a gun already pointed at you. Folks are quick, but not quicker than a trigger pull
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TOTALLY agree; but thats also how most robberies go now. Few suspects phone ahead to say they are going to rob you (sarcasm).... and if being surprised with a gun pointed at you is the case, why carry a gun in the first place?

Im not so much blaming the victims as the mindset. Maryland is not a gun minded place. Ive had folks from MD praise the 10 round magazine limit as being safer for everyone. These folks might have been different IDK, its just that never giving up your gun was drummed into me
 
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THE ONION FIELD Incident is why you never give up your gun NEVER.

On March 9, 1963, Los Angeles Police Department Officers—Ian Campbell and Karl Hettinger—pulled over a vehicle in Hollywood for suspicious activity. The suspects, ex-convicts Gregory Powell and Jimmy Lee Smith, pulled guns on the officers, disarmed them, and kidnapped them. Powell and Smith drove the officers to an isolated onion field near Bakersfield, California, where Officer Campbell was executed. Officer Hettinger was able to run away into the dark, miraculously escaping. The incident became a foundational lesson in law enforcement training.

Officer Campbell was held at gunpoint. He instructed Officer Hettinger to surrender his weapon in an attempt to de-escalate the situation. The Fatal Mistake. The suspects ultimately killed Officer Campbell anyway, proving that handing over a weapon does not guarantee a criminal will let you go. While Hettinger was able to escape he criticized by the public and other Officers for giving up his gun. He was haunted by survivor's guilt for the rest of his life. Because of this some departments began to allow Officers to carry a "Back Up" gun. Of the ones that didnt, many intentionally did not look too close.

AGAIN let me be clear I am NOT criticizing the victim that gave up the gun RATHER the mentality and possibly lack of fundamental tactical training which led to giving up the gun. Firearms training should be more than how to hit a paper target. Shooters need to be taught a TACTICAL mindset. Had the Officers not arrived, a repeat of the Onion Field might have been the next chapter in this story.

If you carry a gun USE IT! If youre gun is buried so deep you cant draw it under pressure get another holster. This story could have ended with "Licensed gun owner kills cop shooter" "Wife says my husband saved my life and ended a POS with his gun" "Police praise civilian for OFFING cop shooter"
 
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It is often said that first you take the test and then you learn the lesson. The lesson from the Onion Field and THIS incident is:

• Be able to get to your weapon under stress and consider a Back Up
• Have a TACTICAL Mindset and a plan if faced with a suspect with a drawn gun
• Remember that you are never worse than equal when you have a gun. KEEP it and USE it
• And never NEVER give up your gun
 
PieterCoetzee said:
THE ONION FIELD Incident is why you never give up your gun NEVER.

On March 9, 1963, Los Angeles Police Department Officers—Ian Campbell and Karl Hettinger—pulled over a vehicle in Hollywood for suspicious activity. The suspects, ex-convicts Gregory Powell and Jimmy Lee Smith, pulled guns on the officers, disarmed them, and kidnapped them. Powell and Smith drove the officers to an isolated onion field near Bakersfield, California, where Officer Campbell was executed. Officer Hettinger was able to run away into the dark, miraculously escaping. The incident became a foundational lesson in law enforcement training.

Officer Campbell was held at gunpoint. He instructed Officer Hettinger to surrender his weapon in an attempt to de-escalate the situation. The Fatal Mistake. The suspects ultimately killed Officer Campbell anyway, proving that handing over a weapon does not guarantee a criminal will let you go. While Hettinger was able to escape he criticized by the public and other Officers for giving up his gun. He was haunted by survivor's guilt for the rest of his life. Because of this some departments began to allow Officers to carry a "Back Up" gun. Of the ones that didnt, many intentionally did not look too close.

AGAIN let me be clear I am NOT criticizing the victim that gave up the gun RATHER the mentality and possibly lack of fundamental tactical training which led to giving up the gun. Firearms training should be more than how to hit a paper target. Shooters need to be taught a TACTICAL mindset. Had the Officers not arrived, a repeat of the Onion Field might have been the next chapter in this story.

If you carry a gun USE IT! If youre gun is buried so deep you cant draw it under pressure get another holster. This story could have ended with "Licensed gun owner kills cop shooter" "Wife says my husband saved my life and ended a POS with his gun" "Police praise civilian for OFFING cop shooter"
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That was beat into us at the LAPD Academy in 1971! Hettinger was forced to make rollcall presentations all over the city. City really threw him under the bus for a policy the Chiefs developed after the fact!
 
PieterCoetzee said:
TOTALLY agree; but thats also how most robberies go now. Few suspects phone ahead to say they are going to rob you (sarcasm).... and if being surprised with a gun pointed at you is the case, why carry a gun in the first place?

Im not so much blaming the victims as the mindset. Maryland is not a gun minded place. Ive had folks from MD praise the 10 round magazine limit as being safer for everyone. These folks might have been different IDK, its just that never giving up your gun was drummed into me
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No F’ing way you are getting the first shot off if you have a gun pointed at you already. Ever. Don’t F’ing try that bravado 💩 on me. I draw a 1 second or less shot. Still not beating a trigger pull.
This hiker may have had AirPods in, not heard them coming or many other reasons to be instantly staring down a barrel of a gun. Mindset can be 100%, doesn’t mean your in an instant position where you can always pull your gun and win.
If you, Pieter, are walking along and I come around the corner with my gun already up and ready to engage you instantly, that is a fight you won’t win. Trigger pull is quicker. Only reason you walk away is their accuracy sucks. But no one knows that until the trigger is pulled.
How many perps try to pull their gun on an officer that already has his gun pointed at the suspect. The results show the officers shoot the suspect every time first
 
KillerFord1977 said:
No F’ing way you are getting the first shot off if you have a gun pointed at you already. Ever. Don’t F’ing try that bravado 💩 on me. I draw a 1 second or less shot. Still not beating a trigger pull.
This hiker may have had AirPods in, not heard them coming or many other reasons to be instantly staring down a barrel of a gun. Mindset can be 100%, doesn’t mean your in an instant position where you can always pull your gun and win.
If you, Pieter, are walking along and I come around the corner with my gun already up and ready to engage you instantly, that is a fight you won’t win. Trigger pull is quicker. Only reason you walk away is their accuracy sucks. But no one knows that until the trigger is pulled.
How many perps try to pull their gun on an officer that already has his gun pointed at the suspect. The results show the officers shoot the suspect every time first
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Again my friend you are right in so far as draw speed vs trigger speed. You may not beat the trigger BUT you have no chance if you willingly give up your gun. Thats not bravado, thats just real life. In the case in Maryland, the guy had already shot a cop; who he had good reason to believe was dead or dying; so he had no reason to spare any lives who may be further witnesses.

Yes you are correct, trying to outdraw him while he has a gun on you, would have been taking a chance; but you lose every bet you dont make. AND as I said in the original post, Id rather be the guy that might get shot, then the guy that got shot with my own gun. Thats not bravado thats just the way I see it. You may feel otherwise and thats cool.

As for me I dont do Air Pods, so I can eliminate that fog. I do understand the guy could have been hiding and then jumped out on the couple but I cant imagine letting someone I care about get hurt without trying to kill the guy attacking us.

The only time I carry a pocket pistol without a second gun would be on relatively secure events like a wedding etc and then its a PPK in a shoulder holster and if possible Id have something really small like a Seecamp or a NAA revolver along too. In the MD incident a NAA in an easily accessible pocket could possibly fired while fainting that the victim was getting his wallet or cash, then follow that up with a burst from the primary.

I'll also toss out that disrupting the bad guys concentration OODALOOP. He thinks he in charge because he has the gun. Let him think that as you prepare AND attack.

So I ask what is the virtue of carrying a gun IF you are going to give it up? Why go to the expense of buying the gun, getting licensed to CCW and then giving it up because you were taken by surprise? Perhaps this couple didnt know the trails in MD are dangerous, IDK; but one of them thought enough to bring along a gun and then when it was most needed, it was given the the badguy. THAT is a Mindset issue.

Giving up your gun is giving up. Never give up
 
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The lesson from this: is to be situationally aware at all times. This hiker didn't hear gunshots, so he didn't have his firearm out and ready? If you are going to carry, you better damned well know what gunshots sound like and be reacting as necessary, especially if you have your loved one/loved ones with you.
 
Onewolf426 said:
The lesson from this: is to be situationally aware at all times.
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EXACTLY Its a shame that you even have to say that. Im not immune as I suspect neither is everyone else; but its the loss of awareness that is the crippling cause. Cell phones are a huge cause, we use them for music and of course to talk where we would never have considered having a conversation only a generation ago.

It used to be we only fadded when a Hot woman with big T*TS walked by

edit to add: I just wanted to say T*TS......
 
If the original perp weapon was now pointed at the woman of the couple, who may have been the wife/girlfriend/daughter of the carrier would certainly provide some variables to the try and draw or not scenario…
 
One drill I remember from the late 80's. As an officer you have your service weapon on a suspect who has his weapon at his side in hand. I was amazed how many times the suspect was able to get the first shot off. Different mindsets, the suspect decided he was going to shoot and the officer was confirming the suspect was going to shoot. I never witnessed the suspect win that scenario from drawing a holstered weapon. Also participated in many scenarios of fighting to maintain your weapon because you did not willing give up your weapon. The hikers were screwed. Thankfully though both the wounded officer and hiker survived. Hopefully using the situation for valuable lessons learned although due to training the lessons should be different. No substitution for awareness.
 
southtex said:
One drill I remember from the late 80's. As an officer you have your service weapon on a suspect who has his weapon at his side in hand. I was amazed how many times the suspect was able to get the first shot off. Different mindsets, the suspect decided he was going to shoot and the officer was confirming the suspect was going to shoot. I never witnessed the suspect win that scenario from drawing a holstered weapon. Also participated in many scenarios of fighting to maintain your weapon because you did not willing give up your weapon. The hikers were screwed. Thankfully though both the wounded officer and hiker survived. Hopefully using the situation for valuable lessons learned although due to training the lessons should be different. No substitution for awareness.
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Yep one is a you might lose situation and the other is you’ll probably lose. It’s easy to say from behind a keyboard but I’ll take my chances trying to get to my gun
 
PieterCoetzee said:
Yep one is a you might lose situation and the other is you’ll probably lose. It’s easy to say from behind a keyboard but I’ll take my chances trying to get to my gun
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I honestly don't understand. The drill was designed to teach prospective officers that because you have your gun pointed at a suspect don't feel you have the upper hand. Again, the word awareness.
 
Guys I think Ive been polite and noted when I agreed with you as well as when I dont. Its curious to me that you dont want to believe what I say but you expect me and others to believe you. I have zero intentions of proving my bona fides to you. I shouldnt have to as I dont ask such from you, neither do you seem to ask it of others. Yes I have been shot at and stabbed and faced an armed suicidal subject, even a guy with homemade explosives. Some of those times I walked away unscathed and a couple times it didnt go so well AND those "not so wells" taught me a few lessons. You are of course free to believe or disagree with what I say, thats the purpose of a discord; but then is it too much to ask the same from you.

This all circles back to can you outdraw a badguy with his gun already out? I ask that because I know for sure that you cant if you give up your gun. Once you accept that then its a question of fate, faith, and distraction. I recall someone here said when faced with an armed suspect he asked, "Do you know Jesus?"; which seems a pretty good way to interrupt their OODA LOOP, all the more with a body cam recording.

Note that I have repeatedly pointed out that I do not blame the victims action in the MD case but rather the MINDSET and situational awareness, which I think is amplified by Maryland (and Blue State) mentality.

As for those of you who disagree with my suggestion of not giving up the gun, I ask what would you have done? And how you would feel if once disarmed the Cop shooter turned your gun on you and your wife? I ask that because its pretty clear Officer Hettinger who gave up his gun in the Onion Field incident wished he'd made a different decision. Without seeing his post incident Psych notes, I betcha a shinny quarter, at some point he wished he'd been killed.

As in all things, do what you think is best for you; but remember youre gonna have to live or die with your decision (and in THIS case your family too).
 
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