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LGS gives FBI access to gun purchase records

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I agree. Especially since the shop owner was reluctant at first. Now, we don't know for a fact if they did or didn't have a warrant. They may have had one, but wanted to see if he would be cooperative before forcing the issue, which is the decent thing to do. We weren't there, so we don't know. Kind of a mixed feeling about it, but they were looking for specific individuals, not every single person who ever purchased there.
 
OH please. Its a reasonable ask, and Im not 100% sure that exigent circumstances doesnt get them a pass anyway. Look at iit like this YOUR mother is missing, likely dead and the PD has photographic evidence of a suspect at her house the night she went missing. The subject is masked but it still shows some recognizable features. Hes armed, so the PD wants to know if he looks familiar to you. They have some folks who matched the video, and asked if any of them made a recent purchase. It doesnt seem too much of an ask.

Exactly what are they asking that hurts any of us? If they find some possibles, they interview them. Some will get weeded out others will remain possibles. Whats the problem? Especially when its YOUR mother.

They arent asking for a total record check, just recent purchases from a few possibles that fit the description. I can pretty much assure you that IF they had been forced to come back with a warrant, the search would have been much deeper
 
PieterCoetzee said:
OH please. Its a reasonable ask, and Im not 100% sure that exigent circumstances doesnt get them a pass anyway. Look at iit like this YOUR mother is missing, likely dead and the PD has photographic evidence of a suspect at her house the night she went missing. The subject is masked but it still shows some recognizable features. Hes armed, so the PD wants to know if he looks familiar to you. They have some folks who matched the video, and asked if any of them made a recent purchase. It doesnt seem too much of an ask.

Exactly what are they asking that hurts any of us? If they find some possibles, they interview them. Some will get weeded out others will remain possibles. Whats the problem? Especially when its YOUR mother.

They arent asking for a total record check, just recent purchases from a few possibles that fit the description. I can pretty much assure you that IF they had been forced to come back with a warrant, the search would have been much deeper
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What about folks that “might” have been “close” to the description but had zero to do with the incident? While it might not hurt any of us, what about those who are forced to demonstrate it wasn’t them, suffering through FBI interviews, needing alibis?

Exigent circumstances does seem a stretch to “me” a week or so later. Not like the records were going anywhere.

But I get the LEO perspective.
 
Lab4Us said:
What about
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Yeah What about them? They look like the subject in the video, which I'll admit isnt a lot to go on BUT it is still a lead. So youre one of the guys that they come to talk to, and your offended? Oh Please. If you look like the subject and they come, you have a few options, say nothing, which will only make them look further (and waste time), say hey it wasnt me because I was here_____, or say come back with a warrant and see what happens....

They probably knocked on the neighbors doors and asked where they were that night tooo. Was that some sort of violation?

Judas Priest, its a lite ask. Theres gotta be a better hill to plant your flag on
 
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OldGrunt said:
I highly doubt the investigation would have gone to these lengths if it had been most of our mothers. The great lengths of this investigation are for reserved for "special" people.
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Hmmmmm? Youre seeing this one BECAUSE of who she is; but I think any confirmed kidnapping would have followed every lead. Perhaps the PD/Feds would have other cases BUT leads get followed up. Detectives get rated by how many cases they clear, even the drug murders in baltimore city get investigated. You dont see it when "Sputtie" gets shot by "Snoteater" because he cheated when they were playing craps in the alley, but they DO get investigated.

Have too many open cases and bosses start to ask if perhaps you shouldnt go back to traffic...
 
Guys, try walking a mile in their shoes...

Remember this case started as a missing adult. Its likely (BUT WE DONT KNOW) the original officers werent told the extent of her medical condition, and even so (BUT WE DONT KNOW), shes an adult fully capable of living on her own. Maybe they saw the blood on the pourch or maybe not (BUT WE DONT KNOW). Its not something you might be looking for and its possible she simply had a bloody nose and maybe was headed to the store for _______ (BUT WE DONT KNOW). We dont call out SWAT just because the neighbors say kids are playing cops and robbers in the back yard, neither do we wake up neighbors to ask if Nancy is sleeping on your sofa tonight.

Yep the Sherriff isnt media savvy but this was probably the first case in his career that got this much attention (BUT WE DONT KNOW) and OMG on his time off he went to a basketball game, I bet he even took time to crap in a real toilet too (BUT WE DONT KNOW).

We ONLY hear what is on 24 hour TV, not whats ACTUALLY happening. A few of us are/were Police. Its NOT a 60 minute TV show. Yes Im seeing stuff I would have done differently or in a different order and maybe a few Fowl ups and bad decisions; but I wasnt there...
 
First off, I hope I am wrong but I think we are investigating a homicide as well as a kidnapping. No stone should be left unturned either way.

In a major investigation, every day and at every stage, you reassess what you know so far and develop logical leads. Then you assign investigators to go out and follow up on those leads. I think investigators have a pretty good idea of the make and model of handgun and holster. Finding out who bought guns similar to the one seen in the Ring video is an important step. Canvassing local gun shops for recent purchases of guns similar to the one seen is a logical lead. I would have assigned that lead myself. Names of individuals fitting the investigative theory will provide additional logical leads to be followed up. It's how complex investigations work.

Outrage that agents looked at records at a gunshop is a tempest in a teacup. Facilitating criminal investigations is why those records exist.
 
Ehh ( on this one ) .
Agent *asks* about limited number of names in limited time period , and shows pictures . FFL voluntarily checks records . Agent does not take or copy any records .

What IS worrying is the doorbell video .

( IF media reports are accurate) it wasn't recording on site , and there was no arrangement to store it on Cloud or other third party site . So how does the footage even legitimately exist ?
 
This is not at all unusual in a crime like this. Same thing happens when trying to identify a gun used in a crime. FBI has to contact manufacturer, manufacturer matches serial number to LGS it was sent to, FBI goes to LGS and requests to see 4473. LGS can agree or tell them to come back with a warrant. In this case LGS opted to cooperate with FBI, but they didn’t have to. I think that most should take solace in the fact that FBI does not have access to a magical database of gun owners and has to do some proper footwork.
 
SimonRL said:
This is not at all unusual in a crime like this. Same thing happens when trying to identify a gun used in a crime. FBI has to contact manufacturer, manufacturer matches serial number to LGS it was sent to, FBI goes to LGS and requests to see 4473. LGS can agree or tell them to come back with a warrant. In this case LGS opted to cooperate with FBI, but they didn’t have to. I think that most should take solace in the fact that FBI does not have access to a magical database of gun owners and has to do some proper footwork.
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I think most of us get it when they have an actual serial number and are tracing the gun ownership, makes sense, track the gun used in a crime to the final owner. It’s why I keep a spreadsheet on every gun I move on - in case I’m in that thread I can point to exactly where it went when it left me (which is always an LGS who has to maintain records).

It’s the fishing about, for all intents and purposes, an unknown type gun, no serial number, and a couple dozen pictures of folks who “might” have bought a similar looking gun (all compacts?). Seems the classic example of a “fishing expedition” where most judges would never provide a warrant.
 
Lab4Us said:
I think most of us get it when they have an actual serial number and are tracing the gun ownership, makes sense, track the gun used in a crime to the final owner. It’s why I keep a spreadsheet on every gun I move on - in case I’m in that thread I can point to exactly where it went when it left me (which is always an LGS who has to maintain records).

It’s the fishing about, for all intents and purposes, an unknown type gun, no serial number, and a couple dozen pictures of folks who “might” have bought a similar looking gun (all compacts?). Seems the classic example of a “fishing expedition” where most judges would never provide a warrant.
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Successful fishermen and successful investigators have much in common. And no warrant is required in this instance.
 
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