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Miami Shootout, and what it means today — 9mm vs. 40 vs. 10mm?

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IForgot

IForgot

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@BET7 mentioned the Miami Shootout in another thread (https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/coolest-gun-moment-in-a-movie.494/post-8311), and I thought it might be interesting to discuss that and what it means today. I hear a lot about how that shooting made the FBI rethink the .38 and the 9mm, and that led to the 10mm (and later the .40). So you had the .40 dominate the LE world in the 90s and 2000s, and the 9mm and 10mm were nobodies. Now, the .40 seems to be the forgotten one, the 9mm is on top, and the 10mm is unbelievably popular.

What do you all think? Are the lessons from Miami still relevant, or are they old news?
 
IForgot said:
@BET7 mentioned the Miami Shootout in another thread (https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/coolest-gun-moment-in-a-movie.494/post-8311), and I thought it might be interesting to discuss that and what it means today. I hear a lot about how that shooting made the FBI rethink the .38 and the 9mm, and that led to the 10mm (and later the .40). So you had the .40 dominate the LE world in the 90s and 2000s, and the 9mm and 10mm were nobodies. Now, the .40 seems to be the forgotten one, the 9mm is on top, and the 10mm is unbelievably popular.

What do you all think? Are the lessons from Miami still relevant, or are they old news?
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The breakdown I saw recently put the FBI's problems on bad marksmanship by the agents. I think I remember hearing one of the agents fired over 30 rounds with one hit. I'd imagine the 9mm, .40, or 10mm would have done fine if they'd actually hit their targets. I'm not talking trash about the FBI agents here, either. I have no idea how well I'd do if I found myself staring down the barrel of a Mini-14 from mere feet away.
 
benstt said:
The breakdown I saw recently put the FBI's problems on bad marksmanship by the agents. I think I remember hearing one of the agents fired over 30 rounds with one hit. I'd imagine the 9mm, .40, or 10mm would have done fine if they'd actually hit their targets. I'm not talking trash about the FBI agents here, either. I have no idea how well I'd do if I found myself staring down the barrel of a Mini-14 from mere feet away.
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Agreed on that about the Mini-14. I suspect my marksmanship would become really questionable if I were taking fire from a rifle.
 
The phrase "aim to hit, hit where you aim" is so true. I have no idea how I would respond to that situation but I would have to believe shot placement over caliber is the key. I would also think penetration and energy delivered would impact the effect of off hits. I practice the initial move to draw and get on target regularly hoping to make this automatic but the paper silhouette poses a very low level threat.
 
It’s actually hard to try to determine what went wrong, if anything went wrong in the Miami shootout, we were not there when this horrendous act took place, all the investigations are really just what they determined what might have happened. But, to reply here, at that time when this took place, 9mm ammo was just starting to get better, 40 cal may have helped, but if you couldn’t hit your target, then really no matter what caliber you had, probably wouldn’t have made to much of a difference anyway. When adrenaline kicks in, stuff happens, my only thoughts are the lost FBI agents we lost that day.
 
I'd always lean toward a heavier, faster bullet. I get why the FBI tried to go to the 10mm (can you imagine the performance of a 10mm MP5!), as that is a great round. But, with its heavy recoil and large size, I also get why the .40 made sense. Now, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a 9mm, but .40s are relatively few and far between. Agree with @Annihilator about the lives lost that day...
 
Two things matter: Are you any good with what you have and what are you up against.

Way back when it was mostly LEO's with 38's. They were required to hit what they pointed that 38 at or they were
put in the office until they could.
I however know that back then an expert marksman, with a 10mm, would have only been looking for the thickest engine block to get between him and Clyde Barrow with his BAR!

More recent the North Hollywood fiasco. There were 2000 rounds of ammo fired and two, yes two bad actors, with a slew of LEO's. To get them stopped as soon as we would have liked would mean Bazooka's or more. Which I'd just as soon LEO's didn't have.

Is the 10mm the round to end all rounds? I don't think so. I prefer the 357 SIg. Well, I did until today. Now I kinda have a love affair going with the 7", 300 Blackout, yeah baby!!

If this mess made any sense to you would you please explain it to me!! o_O
 
This is the movie that I watched and reference in the other post. In other documentaries and such, I heard the armored car robbers were on drugs that allowed them to take several shots but keep on going. Several missed shots from both sides. FBI revised how to trail and stop assailants (try to avoid stopping them in a residential area), other procedural changes. The 9mm round has improved a lot since then, and I believe that's why they eventually went back to it. The 10mm as it initially came out (you can get it from double tap , buffalo bore, etc), was too much for the smaller agents (both male and female) to handle and why they scaled in back to the 40 round. I agree, it was regretful that we lost these courageous agents and civilians that were previously murdered by these two assailants. (armored car guards that were complying with their demands, a guy murdered while target shooting in the everglades just for his car). If i remember correctly, these two were Army ranger buddies, so they knew how to shoot.

www.imdb.com

In the Line of Duty: The F.B.I. Murders (TV Movie 1988) ⭐ 7.1 | Action, Crime, Drama

1h 32m | Not Rated
www.imdb.com www.imdb.com
 
I spent 32 years as a law enforcement officer. I was one of the luck ones that did not have to fire my weapon in the line of duty other than dispatching injured animals. That is not to say that there were not times that were very close. You never know how you are going to react when SHTF until you are in that situation. During my years of service they dissected a number of Officer Involved Shootings. More than once the bad guy had received fatal wounds but kept fighting. In those instances caliber did not seem to make that much difference. I think the main thing that was learned was that training and mindset accounts for a lot. The old saying you will play like you practice is very true.
 
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I think I posted this in a different thread, but I read an article which outlined that typical handgun ammo punches a hole, then the hole closes up. The perp can keep moving and sometimes doesn't even know for a while that they have been shot. The article said you had to get velocities up around 2200 fps in order to do shock damage to internal organs, etc., and stop the threat right now.
 
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