Most Accurate Production Rifle Ever. Period.

[Roy Huntington]

Oh, I’ve seen it too and none of those fellows ever worked for us. Ever. The thing is if a gun is bad or has chronic issues, we send it back, tell the maker to sort things and contact us when it’s done. If you simply trash the new gun (or any product) then the market tone is set, in spite of the fact it may turn out just fine with some improvements. I’ve often worked with manufacturers to improve and hone a new design, helping to get it right. But had I simply trashed it right off, it would likely kill it in the market. Why do that? I’ve never written up a “bad” gun in a positive way. That’s silly as we only have our creds, which too many online “reviewers” don’t have. Today, if you have an iPhone and a youtube channel you’re a gun expert. Or so many seem to think. I’ve also never understood writers who say things like, “I had one jam in the first magazine, then it ran fine after that.” That’s common for any auto until it gets broken in a bit. But why paint a negative picture when it likely has no bearing on anything in the real world? Too many online experts seem to think unless they trash a new product, they won’t get views. Why not do a good job, be thorough, honest and practical, combining your industry experience with personal experience instead of simply waving your arms behind your tactical sunglasses? I’ve had 40-odd years in the industry, had a 23 year police career in San Diego, worked for Bianchi after retiring in ‘98 as their LE sale director, then was the editor of POLICE Magazine, then took over Handgunner, eventually becoming publisher. The first gun article I wrote was published in ‘84. I post with my real name and if you google me, you’ll find me easily. I don’t hide behind a mask.
During my work at Handgunner, etc., I was fortunate to become friends with a wide range of industry insiders, company presidents, engineers, designers, sales staff and have interacted with thousands of readers over the years. I only say that to show if you have real world experience it can often influence your take on things in our industry. If you started a youtube channel six months ago while you work at an Aurther Murry Dance Studio perhaps people should look at your opion with a grain of salt, at least for now. We’re in a great industry, filled with great people and I simply will never understand the need for the rampant negativity online and in forums so often. Why not be positive, ask good questions, engage rather than name call so we can all learn … and have a good time doing it? Sorry for the longish post, but after all these years, I just hate to see opionions which are, simply put, not true. Roy H.

 

[Belt Fed]

I rarely watch gun tubers. there are plenty that won't say nothing bad about a gun cause they don't want to mess up their gravy train.

When the Sig p322 first came out i watched a goober giving a review on one, it was jamming like crazy and many light strikes and this guy was bragging on how good it was and would highly recommend it. can't believe he showed all the jams and light strikes and still said all that stuff.

I realize there are honest ones, those would be the ones that buy their own stuff. as good as they are, you think Hickock gonna say something bad about Buds, or Miculek gonna say something bad about S&W? i think not.

 

[Talyn]

I recognize your name and was a subscriber of AHG for a long time until I saw a decline in the articles, and ended my subscription.

Was a fan of Shooting Times until G&A bought them out and the life got sucked out of Shooting Times.

The same on the old Shotgun/Firearms News, and now they're into sensationalistic & cosplay stuff.

I only pay attention to the Wolff Publishing products and their writers nowadays.

Like I've said earlier sensationalistic article titles draw attention, and subsequent responses.

 

[Annihilator]

I rarely watch gun tubers. there are plenty that won't say nothing bad about a gun cause they don't want to mess up their gravy train.

When the Sig p322 first came out i watched a goober giving a review on one, it was jamming like crazy and many light strikes and this guy was bragging on how good it was and would highly recommend it. can't believe he showed all the jams and light strikes and still said all that stuff.

I realize there are honest ones, those would be the ones that buy their own stuff. as good as they are, you think Hickock gonna say something bad about Buds, or Miculek gonna say something bad about S&W? i think not.

I don’t watch any of that YouTube , not even gun reviews, I rather read about them personally, I also don’t see anything wrong with Guns & Ammo, Shooting Times magazines, I will miss American Handgunner and Guns magazines, but to each there own, Wollf publishing is just like the other gun magazines, no better no worse

 

[Anchorite]

I know … but then again, we all know what you read on the web is 100 percent factual. I’ve been in the industry for 40 years, editor of American Handgunner and publisher of Guns, American Handgunner and FMG’s consumer publications. I’ve lost track of the number of “perfect” guns sent to me which didn’t function our of the box, broke almost immediately, were missing firing pins (show guns sent to a writer like me), broken grips, lost sights and I even once got a brand new S&W revolver (in the late 1980s) that had no rifling. Trust me … the guns are not cherry picked. I’m amazed at even many custom guns I’ve gotten for articlles had serious issues right out of the box. And they should have been, of all things, hand-worked! But alas … people will either believe it or not. The reason you don’t see trash articles in most magazines and such is because it doesn’t do anyone any good. New guns often have growing pains, so working “with” a maker rather than against them will help them to sort things out. Then you write the article. Roy H.

I worked in a gun shop during college in the 90s. A guy brought in a very nice Weatherby that he said would not shoot, and he’d just returned from an elk hunt out west. He was not happy at all. Very expensive Weatherby.

We looked at that rifle and it had a barrel that was not rifled.

 

[Shibadog]

Seems to shoot good, but “best ever”? I dunno. A few years ago CZ was selling a rifle called the “Master Hunter” in 300 Win Mag that was guaranteed to be minute of angle out to 1000 yards (with a specific round of factory ammo). The one I actually saw included a factor 1000 yrd target. It was pricy, but it included mounted scope. Seems like I remember it was $2700 or so. Also, unless I’m mistaken, doesn’t Howa make a nice fairly inexpensive rifle that they guarantee MOA out of? I believe you can buy three of those for what this new toy goes for.

 

[Anchorite]

Seems to shoot good, but “best ever”? I dunno. A few years ago CZ was selling a rifle called the “Master Hunter” in 300 Win Mag that was guaranteed to be minute of angle out to 1000 yards (with a specific round of factory ammo). The one I actually saw included a factor 1000 yrd target. It was pricy, but it included mounted scope. Seems like I remember it was $2700 or so. Also, unless I’m mistaken, doesn’t Howa make a nice fairly inexpensive rifle that they guarantee MOA out of? I believe you can buy three of those for what this new toy goes for.

Weatherby has their Vanguard that is guaranteed to shoot MOA.

I’ve never seen a 1000 yd target included in a factory rifle before - some 100 yard targets, yes. Cooper rifles does include that 100 yard target.

 

[BarryinIN]

Roy, while you’re here, the article on your custom S&W Heavy Duty in .45 Colt had me looking that issue to death. I hope you still have it.

 

[mikep]

It’s interesting when people complain about the cost of guns today. I just checked and $200 in 1973 would buy you a $1600 gun today. And that same $200 in ‘73 would buy you a rifle that shot 2.5” groups at 100 if you were lucky. A custom rifle with the features of this one would be in the $5,000 to $6,000 range. I’ve tested many Ruger American rifles and they all seem to shoot very well. Not like this, but certainly very well for hunting at any range you can hold. However, quality of build comes into the picture too (at least for some of us). One drives a Lexus or Mercedes not because it goes 65 any faster than a Kia, but because it offers a quality of experience the Kia doesn’t. Roy H.

I would have complained about those prices too back in the day. I’m a curmudgeon.

 

[LDB]

Too much recoil for me. My cap is the .22-250 on the chart I have. The .22 Creedmoor is above that but much closer to it than 6mm. If I felt I just had to have a Creedmoor I might go for that. Doubtful though. And not that pricey an option. Might not have one in my budget range. Plenty of .22-250 and .223 though. Probably just stick with my .22 Hornet and call it a day.

 

[Belt Fed]

Can't argue with the accuracy of that gun, you won't get any better groups out of any gun. i mean one hole is one hole. if you had a 10,000 dollar gun and it can shoot one hole it's no better. Pricewise, you can probably get it cheaper than the MSRP. but a Creedmoor in 6 or 6.5 is not a bench gun as the guy stated. he said it was a hunting gun and i can see it being excellent in that. lightweight and easy to carry. Creedmoor ammo is too expensive just for plinking at the range and not a lot of offerings that is cheap to shoot. I have a 6.5 in an AR platform, and while it is an excellent hunting rifle and i have killed a few deer with it, it is no where near as accurate as that waypoint. But is it the most accurate ever made? i would have worded it as one of the most accurate, not the most accurate.

 

[Roy Huntington]

Roy, while you’re here, the article on your custom S&W Heavy Duty in .45 Colt had me looking that issue to death. I hope you still have it.

Hi Barry, that was a marvelous gun for sure. When I asked Hamilton if he could do it he said, “Well, I think, but we’ll need to see.” The donor gun was a real beater police trade in. Hamilton, of course, did his magic though and you’d never have recognized if you’d seen the original. The barrel was delightfully thin walled as he had the original rebored and re-rifled to keep the profile right. I don’t know of anyone doing that work anymore. Simply amazing what Hamilton can do. It was limited to standard loads and I never shot it with anything other than cowboy style very modest loads. Why beat it up? The Roy Fitzpaw grips (Roy left us years ago now and a nicer man you’d never have met) were, in no uncertain terms, beyond perfection. His talents with wood, bone, horn and ivory were beyond anything mere mortals on earth should be able to do. But as happens with such things, as I’ve aged I figured someone else should enjoy things like that, so it’s in a very good new home. And much to my delight, the new owner shoots it too! I confess though, I still have a framed photo of it above my gunsmithing bench and look at it almost daily with fond memories. Roy H.

 

[Roy Huntington]

Too much recoil for me. My cap is the .22-250 on the chart I have. The .22 Creedmoor is above that but much closer to it than 6mm. If I felt I just had to have a Creedmoor I might go for that. Doubtful though. And not that pricey an option. Might not have one in my budget range. Plenty of .22-250 and .223 though. Probably just stick with my .22 Hornet and call it a day.

I was surprised, actually, at how modest the recoil of this was. It was actually a non-issue. If you can manage a 22-250 you’d hardly notice this. Love the Hornet too! Roy

 

[Roy Huntington]

Weatherby has their Vanguard that is guaranteed to shoot MOA.

I’ve never seen a 1000 yd target included in a factory rifle before - some 100 yard targets, yes. Cooper rifles does include that 100 yard target.

Nighthawk bought Cooper a couple of years ago and moved it lock, stock and barrel to Berryville, Arkansas. They are in limited production now and I’ve been invited to come take a peek. I’m looking to it as they are swell people and those are wonderful rifles indeed. Roy

 

[Roy Huntington]

Seems to shoot good, but “best ever”? I dunno. A few years ago CZ was selling a rifle called the “Master Hunter” in 300 Win Mag that was guaranteed to be minute of angle out to 1000 yards (with a specific round of factory ammo). The one I actually saw included a factor 1000 yrd target. It was pricy, but it included mounted scope. Seems like I remember it was $2700 or so. Also, unless I’m mistaken, doesn’t Howa make a nice fairly inexpensive rifle that they guarantee MOA out of? I believe you can buy three of those for what this new toy goes for.

It was the best I’ve tested. Not necessarily the best ever. There are many good shooters out there without a doubt, but of the many I’ve tested, including many mentioned in the posts, this remarkable rifle was the winner. Roy

 

[Roy Huntington]

I worked in a gun shop during college in the 90s. A guy brought in a very nice Weatherby that he said would not shoot, and he’d just returned from an elk hunt out west. He was not happy at all. Very expensive Weatherby.

We looked at that rifle and it had a barrel that was not rifled.

Oh Lord, imagine the pressure when he shot it. Weatherby used to have the rifles made by other companies but I can’t remember when production was brought domestically. I do know into the ‘90s some models were made by Howa but don’t recall the models. Still amazing that could get out! Roy

 

[Roy Huntington]

I don’t watch any of that YouTube , not even gun reviews, I rather read about them personally, I also don’t see anything wrong with Guns & Ammo, Shooting Times magazines, I will miss American Handgunner and Guns magazines, but to each there own, Wollf publishing is just like the other gun magazines, no better no worse

I enjoyed being editor of Handgunner for almost 20 years. I took over in 2000. Prior I had written for Handgunner and Guns from the early ‘90s (along with most of the other gunzines) and did the Handgunleather column in Handgunner from about ‘95 or so. It is still a family owned small company. I “retired” about two years ago but continue to make videos and do our podcast with Brent Wheat. I was saddened to see the print editions end recently. Many people assume print is being stopped around the industry due to it being unpopular. Nothing could be further from the truth. Our subscription rates were always very strong, but paper costs have gone up almost 500% in the past ten years as domestic production has essentially ceased. Postage has gone off the charts (around 300%) and we went from many distributors to just one huge one so there is no negotiating for the best rates there either. Products costs are approximately 40% covered by subs, and the rest by advertising, list rentals and a few other smaller modes. We did the math many times, but to keep a print magazine going of the quality Handgunner was (paper, photographer, writer pay, etc.) would cost about $60 yearly and the vast majority are simply not able to pay that. Much to my surprise though, hundreds wrote in saying they’d be willing to pay that if we kept it going. Our online articles, videos, podcasts, etc. seem to do well though but alas … it’s just not the same. Roy

 

[LDB]

I've never shot a .22-250. I'm going by a .25-06 I had almost 50 years ago and was more recoil than I preferred. Using this scale I arbitrarily chose .22-250 as the cap based on comparing its numbers with the .25-06 numbers. I'll probably just stick with the Hornet. I don't hunt so it's just for fun and plenty good for that. If I did go to another CF it would more likely be a .223 or a .17 Hornet for who knows what reason other than Hornet fan.

Rifle Recoil Table: Updated for 2024 with all popular cartridges – Backfire

backfire.tv

 

[Annihilator]

I've never shot a .22-250. I'm going by a .25-06 I had almost 50 years ago and was more recoil than I preferred. Using this scale I arbitrarily chose .22-250 as the cap based on comparing its numbers with the .25-06 numbers. I'll probably just stick with the Hornet. I don't hunt so it's just for fun and plenty good for that. If I did go to another CF it would more likely be a .223 or a .17 Hornet for who knows what reason other than Hornet fan.

Rifle Recoil Table: Updated for 2024 with all popular cartridges – Backfire

backfire.tv

22-250 doesn’t have much recoil like you think it does, I have owned several of them over the years, 220Swift has a tad more recoil, which was my favorite varmint round, I first started out with a 222rem, didn’t like the 223rem actually, got me the 22-250 then, a friend had a swift so I picked up one, great long range varmint round, my furthest shot was just a tad over 500 yards, woodchuck had no ideal what hit him. You actually can’t go by those charts, recoil depends on the bullet weight and velocity of the round, if your interested in this round, best to try one out before you commit

 

[Ethan Sackett]

The only experience I have had with new production rifles in the last 2 years is limited. 1st one Tikki T3 Hunter .308 average group 3/4 " at 100 yards. 2nd Ruger American Gen 2 .223 1/2" at 100 yards. Ruger American Gen 2 .308 5/8" at 100 yards. Finally a Winchester mod 70 feather weight .308 3/4" at 100 yards. Good enough for whitetail deer. There are probably some better, but off the shelf, I feel good about them.