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My understanding of the 2nd and my rights with it

jumpinjoe

Custom
Lawfully carrying a gun/weapon is in NO WAY just like a driver's license, or even a little bit like a driver's license. It's a guaranteed RIGHT where driving is a PRIVILEGE.

I want to ask you this...you made the above statement earlier. Do you feel owning and carrying a gun are the same thing in the context of 2A? Just want to clarify.
Absolutely the same ........... The 2nd reads "keep and bear". That in any language means owning and carrying. Don't you agree? And it doesn't add any prior requirements or conditions.

Let me say this ..... I've been around this dirt ball for a long time. I've seen good, bad, dumb, intelligent, interesting, dull, and on and on and on. I've been associated with many and various pro 2nd amendment organizations over many, many years. And I'm sad to say that over those many years I've seen one organization after another fold up, give in, and accept almost anything the anti-gunners have claimed to be for the "public good", or for "public safety", some for "the children" and some simply because it 'feels good'. Not a damn one of them were ever what they claimed to be. One after another they continued to strip away at our 2nd amendment rights because so many of 'us' didn't see them as an infringement, only a "minor inconvenience".

Today my alliance is very limited and I stand as tall as I'm capable of standing in favor of the rights I've fought for and relish. I've left many organizations over the years simply because they didn't stand tall. Now, understand this..... I'm no 'militia' member, nor anything ideologically on the far right fringes. But I do believe in the validity of our constitution and I'm an original-list. I wholeheartedly believe that if the constitution were interpreted as it was written and intended rather than as somebody wishes it were intended, our country would not be in the turmoil it's in today.

I was born before B/W TV was readily available to the general public and I watched a man walk on the moon, and even a permanent space station where men/women stay at length. When I look around today and see all the carnage done to so many cities around the country, the misguided efforts to wipe out the history of this great nation, the destruction of public property, etc, and then realize how so many today feel they need a 'safe room' to hide in instead of supporting the very country that provided everything and every advantage they have, it boggles my mind. I have to wonder just how we would have ended up if today's kids were called upon to defend this nation like in WWII, Korea, and Nam. Today unfortunately the biggest fight is in-house, not in another far off theater. And in my mind, we had beteer start recognizing that if this country is to survive. Because once lost, I don't think it will ever be recovered.

But that's a whole other topic for another time. For now, adios my friend and good night.
 

jumpinjoe

Custom
Please all know that when I speak of "today's kids" doing this or needing that, I know I'm painting with a too wide brush. Certainly we all recognize it's not all of today's kids, just a certain segment of misinformed, misguided, and even mixed up kids.

I work with kids often in a capacity that I see kids of every shape, size, mindset, and temperament. I know there are good kids out there and they rarely get the praise they deserve. So if I write anything less than favorable about "today's" kids, just know that it's not a slam towards all kids, just towards the ones who cause the perception that it's all of them.
 

Bassbob

Professional
Everyone is responsible for their own actions. Untrained dumb*** screws up and hurts someone, there are consequences. Show me some stats where this is even an issue.

You can say we will always have infringements all you want. Forcing me to pay to buy my right to self defense from an entity who according to the supreme court is under no obligation to protect me is unacceptable. You wouldn't tolerate it with the 1st or 4th amendment, but it's ok with the second?
 

JCJ

Operator
Everyone is responsible for their own actions. Untrained dumb*** screws up and hurts someone, there are consequences. Show me some stats where this is even an issue.

You can say we will always have infringements all you want. Forcing me to pay to buy my right to self defense from an entity who according to the supreme court is under no obligation to protect me is unacceptable. You wouldn't tolerate it with the 1st or 4th amendment, but it's ok with the second?
You don't think there a current infringements on the your 1st amendment rights? Go to work and tell your boss to f off and see what happens or yell fire in a movie theater. We do tolerate it with regard to other amendments. I known I will never convince you otherwise, so that is not my point or my goal. I am just being real. I know you are going to say those other infringements are not the same. But, are they?
 

JCJ

Operator
Absolutely the same ........... The 2nd reads "keep and bear". That in any language means owning and carrying. Don't you agree? And it doesn't add any prior requirements or conditions.

Let me say this ..... I've been around this dirt ball for a long time. I've seen good, bad, dumb, intelligent, interesting, dull, and on and on and on. I've been associated with many and various pro 2nd amendment organizations over many, many years. And I'm sad to say that over those many years I've seen one organization after another fold up, give in, and accept almost anything the anti-gunners have claimed to be for the "public good", or for "public safety", some for "the children" and some simply because it 'feels good'. Not a damn one of them were ever what they claimed to be. One after another they continued to strip away at our 2nd amendment rights because so many of 'us' didn't see them as an infringement, only a "minor inconvenience".

Today my alliance is very limited and I stand as tall as I'm capable of standing in favor of the rights I've fought for and relish. I've left many organizations over the years simply because they didn't stand tall. Now, understand this..... I'm no 'militia' member, nor anything ideologically on the far right fringes. But I do believe in the validity of our constitution and I'm an original-list. I wholeheartedly believe that if the constitution were interpreted as it was written and intended rather than as somebody wishes it were intended, our country would not be in the turmoil it's in today.

I was born before B/W TV was readily available to the general public and I watched a man walk on the moon, and even a permanent space station where men/women stay at length. When I look around today and see all the carnage done to so many cities around the country, the misguided efforts to wipe out the history of this great nation, the destruction of public property, etc, and then realize how so many today feel they need a 'safe room' to hide in instead of supporting the very country that provided everything and every advantage they have, it boggles my mind. I have to wonder just how we would have ended up if today's kids were called upon to defend this nation like in WWII, Korea, and Nam. Today unfortunately the biggest fight is in-house, not in another far off theater. And in my mind, we had beteer start recognizing that if this country is to survive. Because once lost, I don't think it will ever be recovered.

But that's a whole other topic for another time. For now, adios my friend and good night.
I realize I am among the small minority on the forum that feels while we have a right to keep and bear arms, allowing someone to physically carry should come with training. That doesn't mean you can't own guns.

Much of what is going on in the country today has more to do with some people thinking their rights and privileges are greater than or more important than others. But, that is not a topic we want to even begin to take on on this forum. As a retired military veteran, its actually embarrassing to see where the country is today. It's cause and effect.

I enjoyed our chat. Stay safe.
 

JCJ

Operator
OK, I'm sorry but I just have to ask ..... when you say this "Yes, I want to be able to defend myself if the need arises. But do I see it as a rights infringement? No, not really. Minor inconvenience...maybe." At what point does that "minor inconvenience" become a "rights infringement"? You seem to imply only when it becomes necessary to defend yourself. My friend, it's at that point it really doesn't matter whether an "infringement" or "minor inconvenience", now does it?

And good training is an invaluable asset to us all,
and as responsible, law-abiding gun owners we should accept that as a personal responsibility. It's the mandating it that becomes an infringement. That's making our constitutionally guaranteed right a conditioned privilege based on someone else's preferences.

It's been a good discussion and maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree for now. But it's almost 3:am and I need my beauty sleep. Have a good night and maybe somewhere down the line we'll pick it up again.

I can live with minor inconvenience and/or infringements for the greater good. It's not going to ruin my day if I can't carry at work. There are enough of other external factors to that do that which have nothing to do with 2A.

If I understand correctly, you are okay with good training and think its invaluable, but you just don't want to be forced to get it. (y) Where we differ is, I don't see it as an infringement if its something I value anyway.
 

JCJ

Operator
You don't think there a current infringements on the your 1st amendment rights? Go to work and tell your boss to f off and see what happens or yell fire in a movie theater. We do tolerate it with regard to other amendments. I known I will never convince you otherwise, so that is not my point or my goal. I am just being real. I know you are going to say those other infringements are not the same. But, are they?
I didn't address search and seizure...cops do it all the time and cite probable cause. Go to a public sporting event, they search and seize knives, etc. and liquor all the time. If you refuse to take it back to your car, they confiscate it. I know, I've worked at a NFL stadium part-time, while serving in the military. So yes, there are times when we tolerate infringements on 1st and 4th amendment rights.
 

KillerFord1977

Professional
Founding Member
I didn't address search and seizure...cops do it all the time and cite probable cause. Go to a public sporting event, they search and seize knives, etc. and liquor all the time. If you refuse to take it back to your car, they confiscate it. I know, I've worked at a NFL stadium part-time, while serving in the military. So yes, there are times when we tolerate infringements on 1st and 4th amendment rights.
That NFL stadium is private property. Property owners have the right to say what goes.
Only reason your infringed upon is they will give you another beverage opportunity when you enter. Will an establishment give me a firearm upon entry if they ask me to not carry ?
 

JCJ

Operator
That NFL stadium is private property. Property owners have the right to say what goes.
Only reason your infringed upon is they will give you another beverage opportunity when you enter. Will an establishment give me a firearm upon entry if they ask me to not carry ?
No, they will not give me a firearm, nor would I expect them too. I am there to watch a sporting event. So no, whether it a beverage or firearm, I don't feel infringed upon. We live in a country with laws, rules and policy that govern behavior. I am okay with that as I have pointed out before. Freedom is not free.
 

Bassbob

Professional
You don't think there a current infringements on the your 1st amendment rights? Go to work and tell your boss to f off and see what happens or yell fire in a movie theater. We do tolerate it with regard to other amendments. I known I will never convince you otherwise, so that is not my point or my goal. I am just being real. I know you are going to say those other infringements are not the same. But, are they?


Follow me here. The 1st amendment doesn't protect your employment by a private company. It's the same premise that allows moderators to control content on THEIR websites. So no, it isn't the same. It's also not an infringement on your 2A rights if your employer doesn't allow you to be armed on THEIR property.
 

JCJ

Operator
Follow me here. The 1st amendment doesn't protect your employment by a private company. It's the same premise that allows moderators to control content on THEIR websites. So no, it isn't the same. It's also not an infringement on your 2A rights if your employer doesn't allow you to be armed on THEIR property.
Bassbob, You didnt read my earlier post correctly, I don't see my employers' ban on carrying weapons on property as an infringement my 2A rights. Neither do I see my employer's or the board moderator control of my comments as infringements. That is the point I was making earlier. There are always restrictions imposed by someone or some entity in most facets of our lives.
 

Bassbob

Professional
Bassbob, You didnt read my earlier post correctly, I don't see my employers' ban on carrying weapons on property as an infringement my 2A rights. Neither do I see my employer's or the board moderator control of my comments as infringements. That is the point I was making earlier. There are always restrictions imposed by someone or some entity in most facets of our lives.


I read it absolutely correctly. You incorrectly see private property rights and the restrictions visitors may be under while on that private property as equivalent to the government restricting your rights. But apparently only your 2A rights. You do understand this government by design works for us don't you?
 

JCJ

Operator
You are so consumed by this 2A conversation you completely missed my point. Let me try to be more succinct for you. I know the difference between private and public property and the power of private property owners to say what goes and what doesn't on said property. I work for the government, in a government leased building so I am also keenly aware that the government also has a say it what happens on government leased or public property. Whether you or I like it or not. It is what it is. The system of government exists to serve the people, but you are naive if you feel the "government" does not establish rules and laws that we have to live by....we are not always going to like it... that includes government at all levels (city, county state and federal). Hell, I will throw in my stinking HOA for that matter who I pay a quarterly fee to but they can tell me what color I can paint my house. I know, not the same as 2A rights, but you get my point, I think.

There will always be restrictions and limitations when it comes to what you can and can't do, even on your own property. This includes a wide range of topics. I won't waste my time explaining that. I know many of you don't like the government telling US what we can and can't do with OUR guns. I get it. But, as a gun owner, I don't get wrapped around the axle if some policy or ordinance states I can't carry my gun in a particular establishment. If a person is so scared to the point that they feel they need a gun on them at all times no matter where they go, get a dog or stay home.

There are other RIGHTS as an American born and raised that are equal to or more important to me than if I can carry a firearm, while I sit in my office doing paperwork.
 

Bassbob

Professional
For starters, you don't know what any given person's situation is so sitting and passing judgement on people who are always armed is pretentious, self important BS. You sit in your government office and make judgement on people who work on the streets in the most dangerous neighborhoods in the most violent cities in the country? Really? Not gonna male many friends here spouting **** like that.

What rights you feel are more important than 2A rights are absolutely irrelevant. The constitution wasn't written to please you. Inalienable rights are inalienable rights. Cannot be infringed means exactly what it says.

No surprise you work for the government.
 

BangBang

Professional
There is no gray area in this. Of course the government will do whatever they can or try and mandate whatever they can to get a dollar, whether it be paying for a license or paying for a mandated class. I’m aware some states allow you to go to a range and some you have to take a test, from my understanding. It’s black and white....
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ScottJ

Professional
Founding Member
You are so consumed by this 2A conversation you completely missed my point. Let me try to be more succinct for you. I know the difference between private and public property and the power of private property owners to say what goes and what doesn't on said property. I work for the government, in a government leased building so I am also keenly aware that the government also has a say it what happens on government leased or public property. Whether you or I like it or not. It is what it is. The system of government exists to serve the people, but you are naive if you feel the "government" does not establish rules and laws that we have to live by....we are not always going to like it... that includes government at all levels (city, county state and federal). Hell, I will throw in my stinking HOA for that matter who I pay a quarterly fee to but they can tell me what color I can paint my house. I know, not the same as 2A rights, but you get my point, I think.

There will always be restrictions and limitations when it comes to what you can and can't do, even on your own property. This includes a wide range of topics. I won't waste my time explaining that. I know many of you don't like the government telling US what we can and can't do with OUR guns. I get it. But, as a gun owner, I don't get wrapped around the axle if some policy or ordinance states I can't carry my gun in a particular establishment. If a person is so scared to the point that they feel they need a gun on them at all times no matter where they go, get a dog or stay home.

There are other RIGHTS as an American born and raised that are equal to or more important to me than if I can carry a firearm, while I sit in my office doing paperwork.
"...my stinking HOA for that matter who I pay a quarterly fee to but they can tell me what color I can paint my house."

Belonging to a HOA? That's what I refer to as self-inflicted. ;)
 

jmcd

Professional
Founding Member
In Massachusetts I had to take a mandatory class to apply for an LTC and I have to say it's a joke!!! There's nothing taught at the class that makes you any safer as a firearm owner that isn't already common sense.

The class is just a cash grab as is paying for a license to exercise your birth right as an american citizen and it's just a way for the local governments to make you believe your right is just a privilege that can be given and taken away so they can control the future of all your rights when you fall in line step.

An LTC doesn't allow you to buy a firearm without a mandatory federal background check, the same background check done in every state in the union so what does this really accomplish?
It's the "Commonwealths" way of punishing you. Pay and jump through hoops to obtain something that "they" don't believe in. They may or may not give you something very restricted dependent on what the individual chief of the town's policy is. Not what the constitution says, what there individual view on the subject is.

I have also taken said class with my son as he needed to take it to obtain his LTC. I was hoping to learn something by it. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case. I even did the "live fire" piece. (not currently required to obtain your LTC here)
The instructor knew right away when we were loading and unloading snap caps in the incredibly beat up Glocks they had that we "had done it before" and asked if I would pre-load everyone's mags to move things along once we got in the range.. I wasn't trying to be a jerk, but I declined. I explained to everyone, that I thought it would be better for the other people in the class that had never handled a gun ( none of them did) to learn how to load the firearm. That's why they were there right? Anyway, in the range we were using Ruger Mark IV's. He had me shoot first. First round...click. Waited, cleared that second round, click, waited, cleared that. I asked if I could use another Ruger. They instructor asked "what do you think is wrong with it". I asked him when was the last time in was cleaned and he responded, "good question".

Thanks for getting me all riled up @10mmLife :LOL:
 

SATRP

Master Class
Founding Member
2A is written in a very broad sense. When the Constitution was written, it had simple times in mind meaning a person that lived on a farm had the right to protect his family, chickens horses and goats. The authors of the that document didnt account for some idiot with an axe to grind taking shots at people in traffic because someone changed lanes without using a turn signal or some person looking for attention shooting up an elementary school. Not everyone is mature enough emotionally stable enough to responsibly bear arms if we truly honest with ourselves. Just like having a driver's license, being able to lawfully carry a weapon is a privilege. The bar is set pretty low to enjoy that privilege/right but there should be a bar of some sort.

James Madison, author of the United States Constitution and Bill of Rights, explicated his Amendment II within his The Federalist No. 46. Amendment II preserves our RIGHT to keep and bear arms to prevent tyranny and preserve our other rights and individual liberties.
 

SATRP

Master Class
Founding Member
2A is written in a very broad sense. When the Constitution was written, it had simple times in mind meaning a person that lived on a farm had the right to protect his family, chickens horses and goats. The authors of the that document didnt account for some idiot with an axe to grind taking shots at people in traffic because someone changed lanes without using a turn signal or some person looking for attention shooting up an elementary school. Not everyone is mature enough emotionally stable enough to responsibly bear arms if we truly honest with ourselves. Just like having a driver's license, being able to lawfully carry a weapon is a privilege. The bar is set pretty low to enjoy that privilege/right but there should be a bar of some sort.

With all due respect, JCJ, you're clueless of Amendment II in its entirety.

What part of Article VI PG 2 of the United States Constitution is causing you difficulty?

Article VI, PG 2, United States Constitution:

"This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding."

No law is valid if it contradicts the Constitution of the United States of America; well, that's how our Founding Fathers intended it to work.
 
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