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New to guns training

TEXASforLIFE

TEXASforLIFE

Ronin
For those (non military or police) that teach family or non with pistols or rifles what trigger pull weight would you teach them with? What goal is set for trigger pull for best understanding with new people? Staying with a stock pull weight (regardless if action or hammer/striker fired) or a almost hair triggered gun? A 10# pull weight seems to be heavy, but less than 3 to light? Something that would let them know and learn from my finger is on the trigger type weight instead of a light spasm and trigger is pulled. Do you want them to pull from dead hammer weight or ready cocked? Do you have them do dry fire for any initial or pre education?
 
For folks who are new to guns (handguns/rifles) I start out with .22 cal. With good hearing protection there's little noise so hopefully the shooter doesn't react to the sound and finch. There's no recoil so the shooter shouldn't anticipate the
the gun going off and should get more comfortable pulling the trigger with each fired round. The shooter should be close enough to the target to see where the rounds are going. This immediate feedback allows them to concentrate on sight alignment and also allows for a more enjoyable experience. You can go from pistols to revolvers, bolt action to semi-auto, but newbies should have fun and be eager to learn more. Larger calibers can come later. And when you think about it, as a kid hopefully your first time out didn't involve someone grabbing a rifle in 30.06 from the rack and taking you out to the lower 40 for your first lesson. When I was 12 my dad had me shoot his 12 gauge as a first time experience. And 60 some years later I still have little use for a shotgun. :)
 
In my novice classes I provide a number of handguns for the students to pick up and handle to find one that "fits". All the triggers are stock. Because these are generally defensive classes we use defensive calibers. Ergonomics and trigger feel are important for a novice. After trying many different brands and models, one of the best handguns I have found to teach novices is the Sig P320. I can change the grip to fit the shooter's hand, and the stock trigger out of the box is excellent. Ergonomics have a direct effect on trigger management. Trigger management, coupled with shot anticipation, is the most common problem with new handgun shooters. I use a retractable ballpoint pen to illustrate for the shooter how small the movement is that is required to fire the gun. Once the shooter is safely shooting on the range, I use an exercise where the shooter holds the gun and aligns the sights, and I work the trigger to fire the gun. It will illustrate very quickly whether the shooter's misses are a result of poor sight alignment, or flinch or trigger management.

If the shooter is unable to work the trigger without "horsing" it, you probably have the wrong gun for that person. I often see female student show up with a revolver that a well meaning person recommended for them, only to learn they could not work the 12# double action trigger pull.

I also teach skeet, combat shotgun, and rifle.

With shotgun, Rule number one is the gun must fit the shooter-trying to teach someone with a shotgun that does not fit is an exercise in futility and the shooter will become discouraged very quickly. Trigger management is a whole different animal with the shotgun on moving targets- here you are more likely to pull the trigger rather than press. Going between shooting moving targets with a shotgun to shooting stationary targets with a rifle requires a gear change in your brain.

The rifle is more of a precision operation. It is important for the shooter to understand how trigger management can affect accuracy. One exercise I use to illustrate this is to have the rifle on a rest, and have the shooter work the trigger by placing the non gun first pad of the thumb on the back of the trigger guard, and the first pad of the index finger centered on the trigger. The rifle is fired by "pinching" the trigger between thumb and index finger, resulting in no input to sight alignment. It is often an "aha" moment to new shooters.

Good luck with it and here's hoping you can develop some new marksmen for the future!
 
Ok, I run the risk of being tied down, being sprinkled by holy water, and having Latin shouted at me, but here goes.

In my opinion trigger weight is not something I have never worried overmuch about, especially for novices. I was always more concerned about the fit of the fire arm, especially good trigger/finger fit/placement. If the firearm fits the shooter, I find they pretty easily adapt to the pull weight. And this is where dry fire helps, again my opinion.

Now I have replaced springs in a few of my revolvers to adjust trigger weight, but that was for personal preference on handguns that I felt fit beautifully. It was more of a fine adjustment.
 
I think it depends on what they can afford. Some firearms have terrible trigger pulls as others are smooth. No matter what weapon they train on, dry fire exercise is always a starting point. Make sure to use snap caps and have them do trigger pulls. Observe their stance and grip. Make sure they are bringing the weapon up to their eye and not their eye down to the weapon. Ensure they know controlled breathing, sight alignment, and a smooth trigger pull. Then place an empty cartridge on the slide by the front sight post. Have them conduct trigger pulls and watch for the empty cartridge to move. If they can get the empty cartridge to not move then it is time to go to the range for live fire exercise. Once at the range utilize a pistol correction chart to assist in identifying what the shooter is doing wrong if anything. I have attached a link to one of many charts. There is a lot of good info from other members on here as well. Good luck and hope you achieve your goal.

aegisacademy.com

Pistol Correction Chart

Pistol Correction Charts (Also Known and Common Error Charts) are the probably the most misused tool in the training industry. They are popular because they superficially promise a quick “one-size-fits-all” cure for common pistol shooting errors. A pistol correction chart is a circle (shaped...
aegisacademy.com aegisacademy.com
 
I don't make a habit of teaching other people, just my family. Maybe some of their friends ( underaged children will have parents concent) and I'm just getting a rounded idea of what other people might teach. Some of these I do and other I haven't yet tied. When I was about 5 I shot a handgun for the first time 22 rimfire) and don't remember anything from it. I mainly shot centerfire and some shotguns. If there is a better or more profeciant way to teach them I'm all for it! My children haven't had any difficulty with the way I teach them and I do change things that will be beneficial for them. Cooky cutter training I think doesn't work for all. Modification is needed in some circumstances.
 
I don't think absolute trigger weight matters as much as that the trigger path should be "teachable" to the learner.

Even a complete novice will understand trigger path principles if one is able to transfer that knowledge to them in a manner in which they are receptive. For example, for an adult of a certain age-bracket, you may be able to describe the act of opening a door and walking through it, versus "Kramer-ing" through it (a character from the TV comedy series "Seinfeld"). For a child, using more concrete examples like "feels like sand rubbing" or "dragging your foot across a cobblestone path" may work just as well as talking to your shooting buddy about trigger creep.

When my daughter first started, I had her experiment with many different triggers -all dry-fire so that I was taking the anticipation of recoil, blast, and noise out of the equation- and having her focus on what each trigger path "felt like," and then using different techniques to manage the trigger paths, to show her what worked better/worse -for her- for each.

Some are light. Some are heavy. Some have a crisp break. Some have a rolling break. Some have a really short travel, others, much longer. Some have more creep. Some stack.

This translated well then to our shopping together for "her guns," where she was then able to, with my guidance, find guns which fit her well in terms of the trigger/grip relationship, and with the type of trigger path that she needed at the time: all of which were important, because she was only 8 at the time.

Later, that understanding allowed her to not only pick, but also install and/or refine the trigger on her AR-15 and Glock 17.
 
Getting comfortable with your weapon is more important then trigger weight. When you are at the range or target shooting you are trying to analyze everything. If you suddenly find yourself in a life or death situation or its 3am and someone is in your house, as long as you are comfortable with the weapon, be it shotgun, rifle, revolver or semi auto, you are going to be pumped full of adrenaline and the trigger pull will happen at 5# or 12#. The most important thing is that you have used that weapon enough that when you grab it as a life saving tool, be it yours or your family or a stranger, you feel ready to use it properly. Target/range shooting is great but real life situations are much different than range shooting. This type of training is available both online and in real life and I have found it to be fun and exciting. I have much more confidence in my handling of multiple firearms after doing both situational training and range shooting.
 
Excepting DA triggers, I have never really felt a trigger, certainly not on any gun I have ever owned, in which the pull weight caused me any concern or discomfort. I am admittedly not a trigger snob, but to be clear I am also not a precision or competition target shooter. I have killed a great many deer with stock 1894s, Remington 700s and BARs, scoped and unscoped and unscoped, stock magnum revolvers from distances ranging from 20 yards to 450 yards. Frankly I can't remember the last time I took a shot with a scoped rifle and missed my intended POI by more than an inch.

And I fully agree with SSmith with regards to training. The closest we can come to simulating the adrenaline dump of an actual SD situation is to train and drill shooting with an extremely elevated heart rate and while extremely winded, which has been a significant part of my "Leisure" shooting for as long as I can remember. When the SHTF everything you think you know about combat/gun fighting will be right out the window and your only hope is that your body and mind instantly and naturally resort to your training and muscle memory. This is why you relentlessly practice the same things over and over. This is why you practice drawing from concealment, coming up on target and performing a smooth trigger press and follow through while remaining on target several hundred times a week. Or at least I do. As SSmith pointed out it is also important to routinely practice good old target shooting to reinforce basic shooting fundamentals.
 
We know from after action reports that officers will revert to what they trained to do on the range when under extreme stress. It's why we train for the fight with drills that program the neuromuscular memory to automatic, permanent memory responses. When tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, fine motor skills, and abstract thinking are diminished you are physically running on auto pilot. Timed stress drills are important. Although not always the case, most lethal encounters are over in 3 seconds or less, 3 rounds or less are fired, and occur at 3 yards or less. A leisurely afternoon plinking at the range is fun but not SD training.
Train for the fight as much as possible.
 
I failed to mention combat breathing as a means to diminish the effects of stress as well. Often the greatest effects of stress hit after the initial critical event or threat is over, and combat breathing can help bring you back to homeostasis more quickly. Coming back to a normal, stable state is important to immediate follow on decision making and actions.
 
A big part of training for every day, 'real life' training, is the clearing of a jammed round or misfire. It also teaches too be more observant and that in most cases it is easier and safer to make a quick exit. Better to not be shot or have to shoot someone else when possible, but best of all is to be prepared for almost all situations when possible.
 
Recusant said:
I assume that you guys also have a training scenario that covers what to do when your gun suddenly stops functioning. It can happen.
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The loudest noise in a gunfight is "click". Even though they are taught to clear stoppages, I have seen even experienced students many times stop and look at their pistol in befuddlement when they get a malfunction. With just the stress of time limits on the range a student can go to "WTF?" mode, rather than immediate action drills. The first time it happens is a great teaching moment. Malfunction drills repeated often enough to become an automatic response are essential, but sadly most will not practice it. Reloading drills likewise.
 
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