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Optic’s viewpoint

PieterCoetzee said:
We disagreed then and now. Co-witness sights allows you to bring the gun on target without having to find the dot because the sights put you on the dot as you align the gun with the target. You are correct that the irons dont have to be aligned for the dot to be on target AND that the bullet will go where the dot is, the problem is finding the dot without the sights.

I have no doubt that once you are proficient finding the dot without sights, that your system works for YOU. Its just that its unnecessarily slow and tedious to learn, especially when we have been conditioned to use iron sights

YES co-witnessing sights are useful when the dot fails but also when changing the battery. I really dont see a negative to co-witnessed sights but plenty of positives
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Hey there Pieter, Are you saying here that when you shoot Co-witness, that you are aligning your iron sights then seeing the dot? Isn't the whole point of the optics that you change the way you acquire a target from looking at your sight then aligning on your target, to looking at your target first and putting the dot on the target? I drill and drill with my optics and find that I ignore the irons totally these days.
 
BassCliff said:
Hi,



I can't really add anything to the conversation other than I'm still working to master my newish optics too. It gets a little better every time I practice with them. I'll swap the Hex Wasp for the new Holosun before I take the Echelon to the range again. The Mod.3 is working well with the Holosun. It'll be nice to have the same optic on both pistols for consistency. The Echelon will cowitness becauseof the direct mount but not the Mod.3 because of the mounting plate.

Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
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I honestly appreciate it.
 
SimonRL said:
I’ll tell you what’s tedious is the constant discussion by old timers who can’t get to grips with running a red dot. It is not hard to learn how to bring your dot up on target everytime. Does it take practice? Sure. Does it take the patience of a Shaolin monk? No, it’s all technique and it can be easily learned.

I’ve said all along it’s horses for courses. Everyone makes their own choice. Fudds gonna fudd.
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Failing eyesight led me to using dot optics. Was having a hard time focusing on the front sight with optics that is no longer a problem. Yeah it took a lot of dry firing practice drawing and acquiring the dot. After several trips to the range have total confidence in dot optics have them on all of my EDC pistols. The MantisX dry/live firing system was and is invaluable in my training.
 
MrMichaelActual said:
Hey there Pieter, Are you saying here that when you shoot Co-witness, that you are aligning your iron sights then seeing the dot? Isn't the whole point of the optics that you change the way you acquire a target from looking at your sight then aligning on your target, to looking at your target first and putting the dot on the target? I drill and drill with my optics and find that I ignore the irons totally these days.
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Im saying that we have learned to aim the gun by aligning the sights. We do that by finding the front/rear sights in whatever order, then bringing the other in line. Finding a red dot without a reference point is slower. The same is true for a laser, You know the dot or laser is there someplace; but without a reference point its slow to find. Youll find youre looking up/down/left/right until you find the dot. Conversely with iron sights, you find one sight front or rear then you know which way to look for the other and once you have the irons, the dot is there and then you can concentrate on anything you want but FIRST you have to find the dot.

My much younger friends here, will say they dont need irons because they somehow know how to find the dot. IDK? Im sure it works for them. Theyve made it clear Im an old timer and being young, of course they know everything. Their position may even be correct (for them); but the paper targets they shoot in their games at dont shoot back. I tried their method and finding the dot without sights is slow.
 
PieterCoetzee said:
Im saying that we have learned to aim the gun by aligning the sights. We do that by finding the front/rear sights in whatever order, then bringing the other in line. Finding a red dot without a reference point is slower. The same is true for a laser, You know the dot or laser is there someplace; but without a reference point its slow to find. Youll find youre looking up/down/left/right until you find the dot. Conversely with iron sights, you find one sight front or rear then you know which way to look for the other and once you have the irons, the dot is there and then you can concentrate on anything you want but FIRST you have to find the dot.

My much younger friends here, will say they dont need irons because they somehow know how to find the dot. IDK? Im sure it works for them. Theyve made it clear Im an old timer and being young, of course they know everything. Their position may even be correct (for them); but the paper targets they shoot in their games at dont shoot back. I tried their method and finding the dot without sights is slow.
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Thanks for verifying stuff. Honestly it does make sense.
 
As I stated above was unable to focus on the iron front sight. Not trying to say dot optics are for everyone but would bet a lot of older folks with vision problems go the dot route. I don't use irons to find the dot would defeat the purpose. Someone like SimonRL could explain this better than I. I'm 78 going to dot optics has helped to be a much better shooter than I could trying to stick with irons. Granted there is a learning curve but for me it worth the effort.
 
Ok. I understand optics are the new thing. Some of us are harder to transition from irons to optics. I’ll be 48 in July and not getting any better with age. Yes I wear glasses and knowing that I’m a type 2 diabetic that my eyes are affected. I found irons do help with the optic and yes I have had optics fail while shooting. I will replace my M&P 10MM optic. I’ll keep my non optics the way they are because I learned on it.

Short story is I’ll pick it up at my speed and set up.
 
PieterCoetzee said:
Im saying that we have learned to aim the gun by aligning the sights. We do that by finding the front/rear sights in whatever order, then bringing the other in line. Finding a red dot without a reference point is slower. The same is true for a laser, You know the dot or laser is there someplace; but without a reference point its slow to find. Youll find youre looking up/down/left/right until you find the dot. Conversely with iron sights, you find one sight front or rear then you know which way to look for the other and once you have the irons, the dot is there and then you can concentrate on anything you want but FIRST you have to find the dot.

My much younger friends here, will say they dont need irons because they somehow know how to find the dot. IDK? Im sure it works for them. Theyve made it clear Im an old timer and being young, of course they know everything. Their position may even be correct (for them); but the paper targets they shoot in their games at dont shoot back. I tried their method and finding the dot without sights is slow.
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If your red dot technique is sound and proper, one will not look up, down, left, right. The dot will be there as quick or quicker than irons.
 
It’s all on how we train. Some of us do really good on irons (providing it’s not cheap like Glock) and some of us on optics. My thing is optics fail more often than irons. I been through failed optics and let me tell you that the irons were a big help.


KillerFord1977 said:
If your red dot technique is sound and proper, one will not look up, down, left, right. The dot will be there as quick or quicker than irons.
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Jsimon78 said:
It’s all on how we train. Some of us do really good on irons (providing it’s not cheap like Glock) and some of us on optics. My thing is optics fail more often than irons. I been through failed optics and let me tell you that the irons were a big help.
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Sure
Mechanical devices fail. So does the pistol, ammo and combination thereof. Why we train for failure drills when shooting.
Irons have a place
So do Red dots

One does not need co witness is my point. If thats a preference, so be it, but you can look thru the glass to see your irons and your target. Just have adjust and train for both. Its not absolute.

As a side note, I’ve had irons come out of a holster draw missing or askew from “hard bumps” or whatever reason. Have to adjust when a rear sight is askew.

💩 happens
 
Jsimon78 said:
Am I the only one that has an issue with optics? I have 3 and each one I’ve kinda struggled with but can shoot fine with the irons. It might be me but I just can’t wrap my head around it anymore than I have.
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The transition was hard for me but am now very happy with the switch to a dot. I find it to be quicker and at least as accurate as my iron sights. I look at my target (impact point),draw the gun, push it out, the dot is there and bang. I now feel more comfortable with the dot. It did take multiple sessions shooting only the dots at the range and practice draws at home using door locks and light switches as intended targets. Stick with it, practice and one day the dot will be there.
1000007982.jpg Optics.jpg
Usually one of these everyday
 
southtex said:
The transition was hard for me but am now very happy with the switch to a dot. I find it to be quicker and at least as accurate as my iron sights. I look at my target (impact point),draw the gun, push it out, the dot is there and bang. I now feel more comfortable with the dot. It did take multiple sessions shooting only the dots at the range and practice draws at home using door locks and light switches as intended targets. Stick with it, practice and one day the dot will be there.
View attachment 103623
Usually one of these everyday
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Thank you. 😊
 
PieterCoetzee said:
Im saying that we have learned to aim the gun by aligning the sights. We do that by finding the front/rear sights in whatever order, then bringing the other in line. Finding a red dot without a reference point is slower. The same is true for a laser, You know the dot or laser is there someplace; but without a reference point its slow to find. Youll find youre looking up/down/left/right until you find the dot. Conversely with iron sights, you find one sight front or rear then you know which way to look for the other and once you have the irons, the dot is there and then you can concentrate on anything you want but FIRST you have to find the dot.

My much younger friends here, will say they dont need irons because they somehow know how to find the dot. IDK? Im sure it works for them. Theyve made it clear Im an old timer and being young, of course they know everything. Their position may even be correct (for them); but the paper targets they shoot in their games at dont shoot back. I tried their method and finding the dot without sights is slow.
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Well, not sure about being very young (mid 50's) but I have always been a bit of a nerd, thus when optics became more available and affordable I jumped in with both feet. I have studied and taken classes and been drilling with optics for many years now, heck as I have said in other threads I wont even buy a gun now that is not optic ready. The only thing I can think to reply to your above statement is this... In the same way that we drilled Irons till we could line up the front blade on our target without even thinking about it... that is the same way you have to approach Optics. When you train and train and drill with Optics, you make the transition from sight acquisition to target acquisition, and as soon as you make that switch, you become faster and more accurate hands down. If you have 'perfected' to the best of your abilities, your Draw and Presentation, then the Dot will always end up right in front of your face where it belongs, right over the target that you are already looking at. There is never any looking around for the dot. If you have to seek the dot then your presentation is off somewhere (grip/angle/etc), thus more training is required. Everything I have learned about becoming a great Optics shooter is that we have to relearn (adjust) some basic fundamentals we all learned long ago, that is the hard part.
 
Guys YOU should do what you think is best. I suggest having co-witnessing sights speeds up finding the dot and getting the shot off (especially when time matters more than a game score).

For those of us with aging eyes, you dont have to USE the sights like you did when you were 20. The front sight (really front and back) is there as an alignment tool(s). Once you find the dot, you can forget about the irons (I dont but you can). Think about coming out of the store and looking for your car. That roof rack or large antenna, or tyre cover, lets you zero in on your target. You dont need to keep staring at it after youve found it BUT finding it is the important part. Some guys will tell you, they never need a landmark to find their car, IDK....I wonder if they could say that when someone was shooting back?
 
PieterCoetzee said:
Guys YOU should do what you think is best. I suggest having co-witnessing sights speeds up finding the dot and getting the shot off (especially when time matters more than a game score).

For those of us with aging eyes, you dont have to USE the sights like you did when you were 20. The front sight (really front and back) is there as an alignment tool(s). Once you find the dot, you can forget about the irons (I dont but you can). Think about coming out of the store and looking for your car. That roof rack or large antenna, or tyre cover, lets you zero in on your target. You dont need to keep staring at it after youve found it BUT finding it is the important part. Some guys will tell you, they never need a landmark to find their car, IDK....I wonder if they could say that when someone was shooting back?
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Totally True > Guys YOU should do what you think is best.
 
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