Just some thoughts for a snowy day. The little 5.8 x 28 has garnered a fair bit of attention. Primarily is was developed for a PDW “carbine” as a solution to arming rear echelon and other troops who don’t get a rifle. Few folks realize that a far better, far more effective round had came about decades earlier but never managed to gain traction. I’m speaking of the 5.7 x 33 (5.7 Johnson; .22 Spitfire) developed by necking down the .30 carbine to .22. From the same length barrel it’ll push a 40 grain pill 500-750 fps faster than a 5.7 x 28 and it does it from a rechambered .30 Carbine which is a lot lighter than the FN PDW. It emerged in the early 60’s (1963?). That little 40 grain pill is pretty slick at 2900 fps. One has to wonder how different things would be if it had been developed/perfected a few years earlier in the late 1950’s. It just might have became “the” choice for action like Vietnam.
PDW musings
- Thread starter Shibadog
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I really think the 5.7 Johnson M1 Carbine should make a comeback. Modernize it some for optics and it would be a far better platform than the P90 and great for home defense.
To say if it was made earlier it might have caught on to take the place of the M16 and 5.56. Is a huge stretch.
The 5.56 is ballistically a lot better and it had its detractors going from the 7.62 to it.
The 5.7 Johnson failed the same way the5.7 x28 failed. And the same way the 4.6mm in PDW like the MP7 have failed.
They just don’t have enough gained benefit and the questionable terminal ballistics each bring has killed it.
Basically an answer to a question nobody wants.
Until the phase guns come out I’d say we have made about as many inroads on ammo development ballistically that there is. The polymer cases stuff that makes ammonia lighter and burn less hot is about the best we are gonna do.
Short of a wildcat here and there for hunting (360 Buckhammer come to mind)
PieterCoetzee
Custom
OK , a couple points: the Carbine is lighter but it has at best 20 rounds less ammo, so the weight comparison isnt equal. The P90 is smaller that the M1/M2 Carbine. Yes the Carbine can be had with a folding stock; but the P90 doesnt require one.
As for the Spitfire round it LONGER than the FN round. I have no ballistic info on the Spitfire cartridge; but I know the FN round will defeat hard armor with little to no recoil. Being shorter the FN round carries well in a pistol. Remember the 1980s PDW concept was to arm rear echelon troops with a weapon capable of defeating Soviet body armor
Im NOT say the Spitfire round isnt a good cartridge, it may be and Im not suggesting the Carbine wasnt/isnt a good PDW candidate. During Viet Nam Carbines with the barrels cut back to the stock were popularly known as "Adviser" guns
Look close, thats Norman Schwarzkopf in Viet Nam with an Advisor Carbine
As for the Spitfire round it LONGER than the FN round. I have no ballistic info on the Spitfire cartridge; but I know the FN round will defeat hard armor with little to no recoil. Being shorter the FN round carries well in a pistol. Remember the 1980s PDW concept was to arm rear echelon troops with a weapon capable of defeating Soviet body armor
Im NOT say the Spitfire round isnt a good cartridge, it may be and Im not suggesting the Carbine wasnt/isnt a good PDW candidate. During Viet Nam Carbines with the barrels cut back to the stock were popularly known as "Adviser" guns
Look close, thats Norman Schwarzkopf in Viet Nam with an Advisor Carbine
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PieterCoetzee
Custom
I strongly disagree. Neither have failed. Both the P90 and the MP7 are excellent weapons in their intended role. They do lack as guns for general use and for Special Operations except in limited and specific roles. As a gun for rear area troops that wont be left leaning someplace when needed and as a weapon that will defeat barriers including hard plates they do exactly what they were intended to do. The mission and threat of Soviets flooding through the Fulda Gap has changed.
For civilians, while the original AP ammo isnt available; there are numerous rounds that will still defeat plates and vehicles etc. Except for the most boutique loads (Black Fang Dragon), the tactical ammo is in the same price range as 9mm HP ammo
Respectfully. What military use then an any marketable numbers? When I was at FLETC the USSS toyed with the FN P90 but that was short lived.
And the MP7 is the same issue very limited issue or use. And as far as here in the US extremely hard to find any because of import laws. Like only one was ever used here in a LE shooting.
The Gkicks in 45 GAP had a longer lifespan and issued to more LE than any of the 5.7 s”or 4.6 stuff was to the Military of any given country or LE combined
M just intrigued with an old guy that significantly outperforms the latest toy the kewl kids have. Frankly I’m not a fan of ANY .22 caliber (or smaller) for protecting me or mine but lots of folks are. They work well for the military because you can tote a lot of ammo, allowing troops to pin an enemy so arty or air can hammer them. For anything that is threatening me or mine I prefer something with a Lot more thump. I carry a 9 because it’s small and easy to carry and I can shoot it well-I’d prefer something that hits like a .44 mag but they’re not easy to carry or shoot fast accurately (at least for me
). I’m always amazed when you see old/very old rounds that do pretty much what the latest greatest “have to have” rounds do. Things like the old .276 Peterson (vs the army’s latest and greatest). The old rounds from the 20’s is within 500 fps and runs at half the chamber pressure. The ancient 6’5 Swede still stacks up pretty well again the new 6.5’s ( just takes a long action to do it).
). I’m always amazed when you see old/very old rounds that do pretty much what the latest greatest “have to have” rounds do. Things like the old .276 Peterson (vs the army’s latest and greatest). The old rounds from the 20’s is within 500 fps and runs at half the chamber pressure. The ancient 6’5 Swede still stacks up pretty well again the new 6.5’s ( just takes a long action to do it).