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Philosophical What Ifs?

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PieterCoetzee

Master Class
Lets have some fun with this, please keep tempers in check.

I just finished reading "Those who walk away from Omelas". The short version is everyone in Omelas lives in near perfect utopian prosperity; but the cost for this is one child lives in constant horror. Im gonna take a chance and say no one would knowingly agree with that BUT what if?

What if you had a chance to put an end to terrorism for the foreseeable future but it meant nuking one town?

What if you captured a terrorist who planted bombs in several cities and refused to divulge the locations. How far would you go to get him to talk? Is torture out of the question?

What if you knew the dealer that sold fentanyl laced drugs to you child OR some other way seriously hurt your child?

What if someone with a history of violence, threatened to kill your family and went so far as to describe your family and where you live and what vehicles you drive and where your kids go to school? I'll just toss out that a mere threat isnt a crime in most jurisdictions, even if the person has the ability to carry out the threat (access to weapons, etc).

For perspective ONE of these really happened to me. If you guys like the thread, I'll tell you what happened but only if we get some serious reflections.
 
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Belt Fed said:
What if the grasshoppers had tommy guns the birds wouldn't eat them
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Then maybe the birds would attack the nests and kill all the babies when the mommies and daddies were out looking for food OR maybe the birds would use 308s and out distance the Tommy guns OR maybe the birds would use Napalm and eat crispy grasshoppers. Would that be so bad? YOU decide thats the whole point of this thread

You get a C for effort. You can do better but I do appreciate your participation. Heres your trophy

So I'll add just for discussion purposes: We have VALUES but how much have our cost us? Values are EASY until its your family at risk
 
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What if it snows and sleets 5 inches and roads are covered in ice and suddenly that night you get a kidney stone, do you commit suicide or ride the pain out until you can get to emergency hospital. just remember i have to be the one to drive.
 
Belt Fed said:
What if it snows and sleets 5 inches and roads are covered in ice and suddenly that night you get a kidney stone, do you commit suicide or ride the pain out until you can get to emergency hospital. just remember i have to be the one to drive.
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Hmmm dont you have the Hasbro Home Surgery Kit OR the Ron Popeel Ultrasound machine, Im surprised, I thought youd be better prepared.
 
First off, I'm skeptical that we can have fun with this, unless we make fun of this. I'll be the first that doesn't, but that isn't fun.
Let me guess.
Ending terrorism for the foreseeable future didn't happen to you.
Torturing a terrorist? Could be, if you were in the military.
The two scenarios regarding a drug dealer seriously hurting a child and someone threatening to kill a family? Again, when eliminating the military consideration, I'm guessing one of those two scenarios had to have happened to you.
To answer those two "what ifs" as it might pertain to me, I'll just say I will do whatever it takes to keep my family safe.
Okay, that wasn't fun at all.
Philosophy is the "love of wisdom." I'm waiting for the wisdom so I may love it.
So, WHAT DID YOU DO? Did you save a ton of money by switching to GEICO?
Just fooling around. :p
 
Someone hurts my wife or kids? Not good for them. Getting info…ever been a combat situation where info was vital…then ask the question again. Been there, done that.
 
Dobbinsky said:
First off, I'm skeptical that we can have fun with this, unless we make fun of this. I'll be the first that doesn't, but that isn't fun.
Let me guess.
Ending terrorism for the foreseeable future didn't happen to you.
Torturing a terrorist? Could be, if you were in the military.
The two scenarios regarding a drug dealer seriously hurting a child and someone threatening to kill a family? Again, when eliminating the military consideration, I'm guessing one of those two scenarios had to have happened to you.
To answer those two "what ifs" as it might pertain to me, I'll just say I will do whatever it takes to keep my family safe.
Okay, that wasn't fun at all.
Philosophy is the "love of wisdom." I'm waiting for the wisdom so I may love it.
So, WHAT DID YOU DO? Did you save a ton of money by switching to GEICO?
Just fooling around. :p
Click to expand...
OK the ending terrorism scenario was from a movie "Acceptable Loss". It involved 5 leaders from different terror groups all being in the same city in Syria but in different places at the same time--would you use a nuke to ensure you got them all

Torturing a terrorist who had planted a nuclear weapon was also from a movie "Unthinkable"--would you be OK using torture to get him to tell you where the bomb is located? If he refuses to talk would you be willing to torture his family in front of him to get him to talk?

The drug dealer thing was just from parents pleading for justice for their kid

The family thing was ME. I was sitting in the ER with a guy for a mental eval, when he described my wife and kids, where we lived and described our car. He threatened to kill them in front of me and told me how hed do it. NONE of that was a crime. When I took a picture of him to send to my wife, he spit on me. THAT was the crime! It took A LOT of restraint to remain calm. Being in the ER surrounded by witnesses helped.

He was committed for psychiatric eval for 30 days then charged with the assault (spitting). His friends from the Psych hospital bailed him out. So waiting for trial Im having to explain to a 3 year old why Daddy is taking a rifle when we go outside to play in the sandbox and why Daddy takes the big bag when we go out to dinner.

At trial I got lucky with the judge. His attorney him wanted to plead guilty for a lessor sentence. I agreed if the judge would hear my victim impact statement. He received one year with an extended probationary period following the year in jail. The judge warned him that if i saw him afterwards near my family that she would understand anything I might do.

My point for the thread was that we all claim to have moral standards but when they involve us directly, those morals become flexible. So nuke a city to get 5 terrorist leaders probably not. Torture a guy whos hidden a Nuke in an American city? Hmmmm? that ones harder. Telling a parent the name location of a drug dealer? No but making sure they came to court to see him, well thats a given. And a guy that specifically identified my wife and kids....Yep Daddy kept a rifle within arms reach even at the playground

Now youve heard my story, what would you do? Torture to extract information is a whole lot more understandable when the threat is great and close to home
 
PieterCoetzee said:
1/Lets have some fun with this, please keep tempers in check.

I just finished reading "Those who walk away from Omelas". The short version is everyone in Omelas lives in near perfect utopian prosperity; but the cost for this is one child lives in constant horror. Im gonna take a chance and say no one would knowingly agree with that BUT what if?

What if you had a chance to put an end to terrorism for the foreseeable future but it meant nuking one town?
What if you captured a terrorist who planted bombs in several cities and refused to divulge the locations. How far would you go to get him to talk? Is torture out of the question?

What if you knew the dealer that sold fentanyl laced drugs to you child OR some other way seriously hurt your child?

What if someone with a history of violence, threatened to kill your family and went so far as to describe your family and where you live and what vehicles you drive and where your kids go to school? I'll just toss out that a mere threat isnt a crime in most jurisdictions, even if the person has the ability to carry out the threat (access to weapons, etc).

For perspective ONE of these really happened to me. If you guys like the thread, I'll tell you what happened but only if we get some serious reflections.
Click to expand...
Nuke it

He/she/it will talk and there is no limit to the extremes I would go to get the info. Once resolved, he/she/it would die...slowly.

Hurt my child and I will let loose the demons inside me.

He/she/it dies
 
Dobbinsky said:
Philosophy is the "love of wisdom." I'm waiting for the wisdom
Click to expand...
The wisdom is the personal journey and search for truth. Its far too easy to say, "Not me, I wouldnt do it" when we're not faced with those decisions.

Yes I was in combat; but never faced with that question. I will say being surrounded by lots of witnesses in the ER made my restraint easier. Had I seen the guy around my home or family, witnesses or not, Im pretty sure it would have resolved differently

Oh and by the way, my wife decided she was pissed at me because I was close and the guy that threatened her and the kids was an unknown


Guys read Those who walk away from Omelas. Its only a few pages but soul searching
 
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PieterCoetzee said:
OK the ending terrorism scenario was from a movie "Acceptable Loss". It involved 5 leaders from different terror groups all being in the same city in Syria but in different places at the same time--would you use a nuke to ensure you got them all

Torturing a terrorist who had planted a nuclear weapon was also from a movie "Unthinkable"--would you be OK using torture to get him to tell you where the bomb is located? If he refuses to talk would you be willing to torture his family in front of him to get him to talk?

The drug dealer thing was just from parents pleading for justice for their kid

The family thing was ME. I was sitting in the ER with a guy for a mental eval, when he described my wife and kids, where we lived and described our car. He threatened to kill them in front of me and told me how hed do it. NONE of that was a crime. When I took a picture of him to send to my wife, he spit on me. THAT was the crime! It took A LOT of restraint to remain calm. Being in the ER surrounded by witnesses helped.

He was committed for psychiatric eval for 30 days then charged with the assault (spitting). His friends from the Psych hospital bailed him out. So waiting for trial Im having to explain to a 3 year old why Daddy is taking a rifle when we go outside to play in the sandbox and why Daddy takes the big bag when we go out to dinner.

At trial I got lucky with the judge. His attorney him wanted to plead guilty for a lessor sentence. I agreed if the judge would hear my victim impact statement. He received one year with an extended probationary period following the year in jail. The judge warned him that if i saw him afterwards near my family that she would understand anything I might do.

My point for the thread was that we all claim to have moral standards but when they involve us directly, those morals become flexible. So nuke a city to get 5 terrorist leaders probably not. Torture a guy whos hidden a Nuke in an American city? Hmmmm? that ones harder. Telling a parent the name location of a drug dealer? No but making sure they came to court to see him, well thats a given. And a guy that specifically identified my wife and kids....Yep Daddy kept a rifle within arms reach even at the playground

Now youve heard my story, what would you do? Torture to extract information is a whole lot more understandable when the threat is great and close to home
Click to expand...
"And a guy that specifically identified my wife and kids....Yep Daddy kept a rifle within arms reach even at the playground."
That's the one scenario I would have bet on. Is the psycho out of jail now? If so, that's rough, and no one should have to watch their back or their children's backs for the likes of someone such as that nutbag. Our judicial system is failing the victims. If this guy was diagnosed with a non-drug-related, incurable mental illness, he's proved to be dangerous and stay institutionalized for life. Dad might want to recon the sick bastard on on occasion.
 
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