Considering replacing the stock sights on my hellcat (which I love - the ball & bucket is very quick to aquire) with something taller so I can cowitness with a holosun 507k. I can only see the very top flats of the stock sights past the holosun. I'm considering going to something like these Night Fision sights (looks like they even have a holosun on a hellcat in the photo on their website) so I can still use the sights in the event the red dot dies. My question is, do I want full night sights (dots on both front and rears) or just a front dot? Normally I'd go with dots all around without an RDS, but I didn't know if the sight picture would get busy having 4 glowing dots shining back at me instead of just the 2 overlapped dots of the front sight and the RDS.
Pistol optics-height sights with a red dot...
- Thread starter jac09
- Start date
SimonRL
Hellcat
I think that a dot on the front, back and in the window is just too much info coming in. At most I’d go with a dot on the front, but honestly, if you’re focusing on your red dot you’re only going to see that front sight when you take the time to look for it, ie training. In a SHTF situation if you take the time to make sure you can see your front sight that might take critical time away from you. Obviously, you can train for that, but my experience in tactical training is that you’re going to be looking for your red dot - period. If for whatever reason your red dot fails at that most critical time you are going to point shoot. In fact, I think even with the dot you’re going to point shoot. For what it’s worth, I have red dots on at least a half dozen pistols and my preferred carry gun has blacked out front and rear sights.
This is my first RDS and I'm still getting used to acquiring the dot in the window. My brain just can't quite comprehend where the dot is when it can't orient the pistol relative to the iron sights. I know that it'll take a lot of practice and training to get used to it, but I also think that being able to see the front site in the RDS window will help me get everything oriented more quickly. I'm leaning towards a front dot only at this point.
SimonRL
Hellcat
I agree with you. Front dot is a good option. The red dot definitely takes time and practice to get used to and it’s not for everyone. Keep us updated on how you make out.
Thanks for the advice. I really, really like the red dot, just need to learn how to use it well. I do have astigmatism, and trying to line up 3 focal planes (target, front, rear) is sometimes a struggle. I definitely can't do it with both eyes open. It was a revelation how easy it was to keep both eyes open with the red dot and just focus on the target. I highly doubt I'll ever go back to irons-only, but want to have the option of using them and training with them.
Thanks, that does help. I was rolling it up because it seemed like I found it faster from the bottom, but rolling it down brings it into cowitness much easier.
I have those same Night Fision sights on a P938 (same except not suppressor height). Love them. Was not sure I would but I like having no rings around the dots on the rear sight. They are excellent sights. I also have other handguns with red dots and night sights front and rear. Having the glowing dots in the dark is not distracting to me at all. I will say this....I was thinking about replacing the rear sight on my Hellcat with the same Night Fision rear on my P938 (just like the one in your pic but not suppressor height), and I could not get the rear to budge on my Hellcat. I have a Wheeler sight pusher. When I got to the point I thought something might break I gave up. I have changed out lots of sights, and never seen anything that refused to move before. If you decide to change them out, be prepared for a fight.
Thanks. I haven't heard of Night Fission before so its good to here from someone who has them. I'd been debating getting a cheapie sight pusher for the job because I don't do that many, but maybe I'll let an expert handle it.
Exactly.
If you're properly target-focused, your eyes/braun will "blow" right past the relative "clutter" of the BUIS, anyway.
Get some good training by an instructor (either "tactical" or competition shooter, it doesn't matter) who specializes in the pistol-mounted RDS so that you get good primacy with how to acquire the dot, before you ingrain any less-desirable habits that might just slow you down (and then have to work doubly hard at eliminating, later!).
Consistency in presentation is the key. With open irons, our eyes/brain is recalibrating that presentation at supercomputer speeds (don't believe me? watch some of Frank Proctor's stuff, and you'll be convinced), allowing a good shooter to literally break the shot on-target precisely at the moment the sights come to full presentation (or even sooner).
That dot should just "appear" when you present. If it doesn't do so, that means that your presentation is itself less-than-perfect (as later "fixing" the gun's position at full-presentation allows you to visualize the dot). If it doesn't do so consistently, it means that there's consistency problems with how you present.
Sight configuration/features are a highly individualized preference, and there's pros and cons to every choice made. The best thing to do is to experiment for yourself, to find out what *you* actually prefer. To-wit: how many different sights are out there that carries the names of one or another big-timer in the industry? If there was truly a superior sight, wouldn't *everyone* be using that sight?
Both objectively and subjectively, we each "see" a little differently from another person.Folks worry a bit too much about the BACKUP irons in both the long-gun and pistol contexts. Switch off your dot, and test yourself to see just how far away you can shoot, with what kind of speed and accuracy, at a target (of noted size) *completely* without any sights, using only the body of the weapon and your kinesthetics as guide. I will bet that you'll be surprised at what you can do. A good handgun shooter can easily hit center-of-mass on a torso-sized target at upwards of 40 yards in this "unsighted" manner: I've witnessed this firs-hand, many times. In terms of the carbine, Joe Weyer of the Alliance Police Training Facility noted that in all his years of teaching CQB, no student ever deployed his/her folding BUIS on their carbine when they encountered RDS failure, and yet every one of those students were still able to meet marksmanship standards.
I'm located in a bit of a desert in terms of tactical/competitive pistol training availability. I did find a local guy willing to give 1v1 lessons for $20/hr, which seems like a heckuva deal to me if he's any good. He has several national certifications with the big shooting groups, although his website is down right now and I can't remember which ones. Told him I'd give him a call once it warmed up a bit.Exactly.
If you're properly target-focused, your eyes/braun will "blow" right past the relative "clutter" of the BUIS, anyway.
Get some good training by an instructor (either "tactical" or competition shooter, it doesn't matter) who specializes in the pistol-mounted RDS so that you get good primacy with how to acquire the dot, before you ingrain any less-desirable habits that might just slow you down (and then have to work doubly hard at eliminating, later!).
Consistency in presentation is the key. With open irons, our eyes/brain is recalibrating that presentation at supercomputer speeds (don't believe me? watch some of Frank Proctor's stuff, and you'll be convinced), allowing a good shooter to literally break the shot on-target precisely at the moment the sights come to full presentation (or even sooner).
That dot should just "appear" when you present. If it doesn't do so, that means that your presentation is itself less-than-perfect (as later "fixing" the gun's position at full-presentation allows you to visualize the dot). If it doesn't do so consistently, it means that there's consistency problems with how you present.
Sight configuration/features are a highly individualized preference, and there's pros and cons to every choice made. The best thing to do is to experiment for yourself, to find out what *you* actually prefer. To-wit: how many different sights are out there that carries the names of one or another big-timer in the industry? If there was truly a superior sight, wouldn't *everyone* be using that sight?
Folks worry a bit too much about the BACKUP irons in both the long-gun and pistol contexts. Switch off your dot, and test yourself to see just how far away you can shoot, with what kind of speed and accuracy, at a target (of noted size) *completely* without any sights, using only the body of the weapon and your kinesthetics as guide. I will bet that you'll be surprised at what you can do. A good handgun shooter can easily hit center-of-mass on a torso-sized target at upwards of 40 yards in this "unsighted" manner: I've witnessed this firs-hand, many times. In terms of the carbine, Joe Weyer of the Alliance Police Training Facility noted that in all his years of teaching CQB, no student ever deployed his/her folding BUIS on their carbine when they encountered RDS failure, and yet every one of those students were still able to meet marksmanship standards.
In the meantime I've just been doing lots of dry fire and practice draws. "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" might be a good movie line, but its what I'm working on to figure out exactly where I'm making mistakes or being inconsistent with my draw/presentation. Trying to keep things slower so I can learn why I'm not making the same grip every time for example. I already fixed some things with how I approach gripping the pistol while its still holstered. The RDS also helped with analyzing my presentation because its easier to see the dot swing up, down, and around as I go through the mechanics of coming on target. It'd be really interesting to invest in one of those Mantis systems I think.
As to your last paragraph, you mention "good handgun shooters". I unfortunately won't put myself in that class yet. I still need my sights, but even then I know I'm flinching hard and pulling down left in live fire. Its even more apparent using the red dot because you can see it dive down on the target so much easier. It really drives me nuts to know what I'm doing wrong yet it keeps happening. I honestly don't understand why I do it either; recoil has never bothered me as far as it hurting, and my hellcat is far more enjoyable to shoot than my shield was.
I've honestly probably fired more rounds through the hellcat in the last 2 weeks than I ever put through the shield in the 5 years that I owned it because it wasn't enjoyable for me to shoot. I love shooting the hellcat.
SimonRL
Hellcat
I’ve been training with a Mantis for the last couple of years and I think it’s an invaluable tool. I love being able to see the trace when I dry fire. It will show your movement prior, during, and after trigger pull and will show where you need to work on your technique. It has easily paid for itself.
I read somewhere on here I believe that a guy mounted his mantis to the bottom of his magazine instead of the accessory rail so he could still use his regular holster. Is that possible?
Dry-fire, try working the draw from "full-presentation & on-target" backwards towards the holster. This way you have a definitive and positive endpoint as your beginning.
With the RDS, what's frustrating at the beginning is that even our smallest imperfections get magnified. Don't lose faith, you'll get it soon enough!
The "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast" Zen is that it's actually all about efficiency. It's like the movements of a skilled surgeon: there's no wasted motion, so he/she is automatically fast. Watching a good shooter on the clock makes things seem ridiculously slow:
It seems slow because they're so efficient - all the slop is out.
And in practice, the only way to ingrain the motor pathway towards that kind of efficiency is to be brutally slow at first. To insure that EACH repetition is done EXACTLY the same as the previous. It's just like that Bruce Lee quote: "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."
I wrote the following to @BassCliff a while ago:
BassCliff's 25th Range Report, Rancho Magnum Range...
^ Start at the "Dry Fire" block of my reply to him, which has a part highlighted in red and orange. That painstaking methodology is from Joe Weyer of the Alliance PD Training Facility, and it's simply amazing at how it engrains perfection.
A good instructor should be able to help boot you out of that rut in relatively short order.
Shooting is just like any other athletic endeavor. We all get those peaks and valleys and plateaus. Sometimes, no matter how hard we try, we can't break ourselves out of our current pattern that we're stuck in.
SimonRL
Hellcat
Yes. It depends on the magazine and you have to buy an adapter that mounts to the mag. I have them for CZ, Sig and 1911 mags
Thanks for all the advice. I'm guessing if I was built more like pat it'd help control the gun a bit too. What a gorilla.
Dry-fire, try working the draw from "full-presentation & on-target" backwards towards the holster. This way you have a definitive and positive endpoint as your beginning.
With the RDS, what's frustrating at the beginning is that even our smallest imperfections get magnified. Don't lose faith, you'll get it soon enough!
The "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast" Zen is that it's actually all about efficiency. It's like the movements of a skilled surgeon: there's no wasted motion, so he/she is automatically fast. Watching a good shooter on the clock makes things seem ridiculously slow:
It seems slow because they're so efficient - all the slop is out.
And in practice, the only way to ingrain the motor pathway towards that kind of efficiency is to be brutally slow at first. To insure that EACH repetition is done EXACTLY the same as the previous. It's just like that Bruce Lee quote: "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."
I wrote the following to @BassCliff a while ago:
BassCliff's 25th Range Report, Rancho Magnum Range...
www.xdtalk.com
^ Start at the "Dry Fire" block of my reply to him, which has a part highlighted in red and orange. That painstaking methodology is from Joe Weyer of the Alliance PD Training Facility, and it's simply amazing at how it engrains perfection.
A good instructor should be able to help boot you out of that rut in relatively short order.
Shooting is just like any other athletic endeavor. We all get those peaks and valleys and plateaus. Sometimes, no matter how hard we try, we can't break ourselves out of our current pattern that we're stuck in.
Just kidding, I know there's plenty of a scrawny shooters better than me too.
Either way, thanks again for the help, I'll check out the bass cliff posts.
scott.amy00
Alpha
If you're attempting to find you dot by cowitnessing it with your iron sights you're never going to learn to find the dot instinctively, all you'll be doing is finding your taller iron sight and the dot will just happen to be there. You've going to have to relearn to locate the taller sights anyway, so why not just continue to practice and train yourself to find the dot the way it's meant to be, by which I mean, not cowitnessed on a pistol. Just my opinion and what's worked for me
You're right. Its just messing with my brain to get used to not looking for the irons, but it is getting better all the time.
I'd still like to be able to use the irons if the need arose. The holosun on the adapter plate makes that very difficult. Still not sure if I'll eventually go to taller irons or just grind down the lugs on the gun and see how low the holosun can go.