C. Sumpin
Custom
Really? How is that? ??
Pitty Doggy Discussion
- Thread starter C. Sumpin
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Pitdogg2
Professional
My thoughts exactly!!
It's them EVIL black guns they just jump up and kill everything in sight!!!
They should be outlawed....
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Bassbob
Emissary
346 fatal pitbull attacks in the US over the last 16 years. Statistically insignificant. If we use that criteria as a basis for dog breed bans where does that leave the argument for gun bans ?
Like gun bans, dog breed bans are a gross overreach of government power. A common sense approach to both "Problems" is, you know, holding the owner/handler responsible for what happens with their property that is in their possession.
C. Sumpin
Custom
Open for suggestions; what type of penalty should those 346 Pitty owners face?
Statistically insignificant. If you are speaking of numbers. Of a bit greater impact if you are the parents or grandparents of one of the (mostly child) victims.
Numbers, values? People have been struggling with correct answer for the value of life for countless centuries.
Has been many varied attempts like cutting off the hands of medical practitioners, hanging, crucifying, stoning, firing squads, ect. My thoughts? Some creatures and things are worth more than money or another life? Taking of one life doesn't absorb the taking of another because there is no actual replacement for either? There is no medical procedure or punishment known that will ever bring back many of the persons unfortunately lost. Acceptance and future avoidance are unfortunately the only answers sometimes?
Bassbob
Emissary
The same exact argument could be made for every single person ever to walk the earth who died of anything other than natural causes. Given this latest argument you made here I am very surprised you seemed to not understand my equating it to gun bans. I mean as small as the number of people killed by AR-15s is in this country, it dwarfs the number of people killed by pitbulls. How can you argue for banning pitbulls and not AR-15s ?
As for penalties, how about the same type of penalties people receive when they negligently kill someone with a gun or a car or anything else? Because that's what it is, negligence. Without exception, every single time someone is injured or killed by a dog it is due to the negligence of a human. That's just a natural fact.
Bassbob
Emissary
Okay, but you are advocating banning pitbulls because they are dangerous. Yet they are nowhere near as dangerous as the inanimate object known as a firearm. Cars, houses, cellphones, liquor, cigarettes, televisions and computers are not protected under the constitution either. Every single one of those things has killed more people than pitbulls.
It's easy for people to be okay with banning stuff they don't own or use. Often they don't see the slippery slope that is allowing the government the power to ban something because some segment of the populace can't seem to use or own them responsibly.
C. Sumpin
Custom
You have a good rebuttal. Why I conceded somewhat and accepted your proposal for adequate penalties for owners.
Okay I’m gonna say this as neutral and general as humanly possible.
As a person who was violently attacked as a child by a Pitbull who “wouldn’t harm a flea” I fought for my life having my only protection as a 21 speed Mountain bike to put between myself and the attacking Pits. Sense that day I have never been an advocate for Pits and frankly never will be. Now mind you I have meet several nice ones after that day but each one of them had the same thing happen eventually (Each and everyone of them without just cause showed an act of aggression towards someone including their owners). Pits in general are an aggressive dog breed as well as several other breeds out there. I wouldn’t personally say that all Pits need to be eliminated but the owners of them need to be held accountable to the maximum extent of the law if their dog attacks someone in any other fashion then defense of family. Sorry to those who disagree with me but this is my opinion.
As far as the argument of banning a dog over banning a firearm. There is one major difference here that I could agree with a ban of the breed over the ban of the gun. Guns don’t have a brain or mind of their own Dogs however do. Dogs eat, sleep, drink, ****, poop, walk, talk (bark or make some sort of auditory sound). Unless the gun was picked up by the person will ill intentions it’s not going to just go off and attack anyone.
@C. Sumpin listen I hear you when it comes to Pits as a survivor I don’t think they should be allowed to be within a mile or two of a child or elderly person. This is my opinion as well. However I will say this about Pits if the owners are bad people the behaviors will come out a lot quicker then if the owners are level headed, responsible, respectable people. The way they are raised does largely have an effect on the dogs mannerisms.
@Bassbob and the vast amount of other members with the same or similar mindset. There is bad in every breed you all are correct. However Pits do lead the nation over all other breeds in attacks closely followed by chihuahuas and other breeds. Most of the times it is out of the blue that these dogs attack. You all are also correct that how the dog is raised does largely affect the way the dog acts, but you can’t rule out the genetic markers in these breeds that can flip on a dime.
As a person who was violently attacked as a child by a Pitbull who “wouldn’t harm a flea” I fought for my life having my only protection as a 21 speed Mountain bike to put between myself and the attacking Pits. Sense that day I have never been an advocate for Pits and frankly never will be. Now mind you I have meet several nice ones after that day but each one of them had the same thing happen eventually (Each and everyone of them without just cause showed an act of aggression towards someone including their owners). Pits in general are an aggressive dog breed as well as several other breeds out there. I wouldn’t personally say that all Pits need to be eliminated but the owners of them need to be held accountable to the maximum extent of the law if their dog attacks someone in any other fashion then defense of family. Sorry to those who disagree with me but this is my opinion.
As far as the argument of banning a dog over banning a firearm. There is one major difference here that I could agree with a ban of the breed over the ban of the gun. Guns don’t have a brain or mind of their own Dogs however do. Dogs eat, sleep, drink, ****, poop, walk, talk (bark or make some sort of auditory sound). Unless the gun was picked up by the person will ill intentions it’s not going to just go off and attack anyone.
@C. Sumpin listen I hear you when it comes to Pits as a survivor I don’t think they should be allowed to be within a mile or two of a child or elderly person. This is my opinion as well. However I will say this about Pits if the owners are bad people the behaviors will come out a lot quicker then if the owners are level headed, responsible, respectable people. The way they are raised does largely have an effect on the dogs mannerisms.
@Bassbob and the vast amount of other members with the same or similar mindset. There is bad in every breed you all are correct. However Pits do lead the nation over all other breeds in attacks closely followed by chihuahuas and other breeds. Most of the times it is out of the blue that these dogs attack. You all are also correct that how the dog is raised does largely affect the way the dog acts, but you can’t rule out the genetic markers in these breeds that can flip on a dime.
C. Sumpin
Custom
Straight from the mouth of a victim and an intelligent person with insight into Pit behavior. Thank You.
More often than not, the owner selects this breed precisely because of their nasty temperament and the owner already has or takes on the character of his "pet". In general, Pit owners have self esteem/psych/security issues. They should not own a Pit or a firearm.
Heretofore have not advertised my qualifications and it won't make a difference to Pitty Poo owners (they will forever deny the documented evidence, also remain ignorant of the destructive prey drive the dog was born with) but as a kennel owner, breeder, and confirmation show participant over many years with an inbred line of Superior quality Rottweilers of international reputation and also participating in advanced obedience, ( totally off leash, high jump, broad jump, retrieving, out of site sit stays/down stays, no audibles/hand signals only, then recall, ect. ect. ) tracking trials, and all breed temperament testing judge and LE "bite work" specialist ( using the Prey drive to advantage ) I still won't claim expert but somewhere back there surpassed the novice stage. Also was "set upon" by two Pits who wanted in the worst way to take me down - it was only my experience......they could "smell"/ "sense" something was different about this prey that saved my ****; they were on their haunches arms length away snarling slobber into my face and with luck having a building nearby that I backed up to so they could not circle me and cutting the attack area to 180 degrees also helped in my not being dead meat. These two pieces of hair were my neighbors "babies", they liked to let them out for "exercise".
That dude watched the entire show, stood like a statue in his yard when I hollered for him to get his dogs off. Of course the mutts would never have recognized him in their frenzy anyway and had he approached may well have been a victim himself.
But. As a society, we love our pets more than our own offspring; person can get more severe penalty by protecting himself from a snarling piece of indiscriminate canine than assault/murder of a human. But we are a "civilized" society aren't we?
C. Sumpin
Custom
This one detail needs to be stressed again; focus on it: How a Pit is raised, socialized, cared for, and the temperament of its owner does not negate/eliminate the latent reactionary prey drive genes in the animal! When the prey drive is triggered with a set of conditions such as noise/motion/location the animal is most likely to "attack" its prey.
In LE and Schutzhund training the prey drive is the key. Some breeds have so little of it they will not accept the training.
The Pit type is the ONLY breed that has so much of it that it can not be used in training, nor will the Pit accept correction /control/obedience. An owner trying to correct/discipline/train a Pit during bit work??? Where? When has this happened? In my day I have never known a trainer/school/LE department that would even consider a Pit for such duties.
In LE and Schutzhund training the prey drive is the key. Some breeds have so little of it they will not accept the training.
The Pit type is the ONLY breed that has so much of it that it can not be used in training, nor will the Pit accept correction /control/obedience. An owner trying to correct/discipline/train a Pit during bit work??? Where? When has this happened? In my day I have never known a trainer/school/LE department that would even consider a Pit for such duties.
Bassbob
Emissary
That's all true, although as someone who did a crap ton of research into the breed before taking my niece's dog after she passed, there are a few things that are facts that I am going to point out again for clarity. For starters, pitbulls aren't genetically " Aggressive". No more than Chihuahuas and several other breeds. The difference is the amount of damage they can cause when they do get aggressive is much more by comparison. As I said earlier, pitbulls react aggressively to perceived threats just like any number of other dogs. I'm talking about regular dogs here, not dogs that were trained for fighting. Almost always when a pitbull attacks it's reactionary. That's not to say that a person or a dog attacked it, but some sort of body language was displayed that the pitbull took as posturing or aggression or a threat. The fact that pitbulls react this way is the reason why pitbull owners absolutely need to understand pitbull behavior and they have a very strict responsibility to be in control of the dog at all times when it is around other people or animals. Personally this is something I took extremely seriously since I was bringing an adult pitbull ( albeit one who never showed any aggression and was in fact a very sweet dog) into a family with a young daughter, a cat and an older Golden retriever. My Golden, Raleigh, was smarter than 99% of the people I have ever met and I miss that dog every single day. He lived with me in my truck for 4 months after my divorce from my first wife. He also regularly punked out that pitbull. Because my pitbull had no idea that he was a vicious killer. What pitbulls don't do is back down. Ever. This is something that is imperative for pitbull owners to understand. If it feels threatened or feels like another dog is trying to assert dominance, most of the time it is going to react aggressively. Or at least the potential for that to happen is extremely great. My pit let my golden dominate him, but I understand that isn't all that common.
And again, when someone has a personal history with something it is going to color their opinion of it. I have been attacked by a dog a couple times in my life. When I was 5 years old I was walking up to a lady's door after she told me to come in and get some cookies when two of her doberman pinschers attacked me and bit the hell out of my face. I never liked dobermans after that, so I get it. My best friend was murdered in 2003 by 3 teenage black kids trying to rob him in East St. Louis and another very close friend along with my laborer were murdered by a black piece of crap in North St. Louis in 2017 covering my job while I was not at work. I wasn't at work because my little brother died of an overdose the day before. He was hanging out with some black guy he met in prison and when he OD'ed rather than call the paramedic his black friend grabbed his $hi7 and took off. So my opinion of black on white crime is probably skewed a little bit.
My takeaway is this. Personal responsibility. I don't hold all black people responsible for the death of my friends and my brother and I don't hold all dobermans responsible for the scar on my face. If someone owns a pitbull and it attacks someone or something unprovoked or unjustifiably, the owner should absolutely be held to account for it. Your pitbull kills a little kid, you should be charged with 2nd degree murder. Period. But you don't get to hold someone else's pitbull responsible for that.
Bassbob
Emissary
This is incorrect. Provably incorrect. Pitbulls don't accept correction? Pure BS brother.
Pitdogg2
Professional
My dog Chester in my avatar knows hand signals, I can use hand signals to give directions as to which direction and how far he needs to go. We groundhog hunt, he sits by my side coyote hunting. If I need him after I've sent him out my hand goes down to my side and I twirl my finger in a circle. He recognizes that as to reel it in and he comes to my side whichever finger I use and sits behind my leg on that side. When hunting his eyes are always looking back to me for direction
He can be walked off leash, will not leave his yard even if all gates are opened. If I tell him to stay he stays until I tell him to move. He will not take food from people unless I tell him it's okay.
Plays good with most dogs that play hard. Looks to his owner for direction as to how to act when a dog gets out of control. These dogs need you to be the ALPHA dog all day everyday.
My 76yo mother I take care of uses a walker and is very unstable. He recognizes this he will not jump up on her (even when she asks) and his attitude around her is much more docile and gentle than playing with the ruff and rowdy kids. He never tries to rush around her when she is moving across the house even when the grandkids toss his toy past her.
He is very well balanced.
Can he flip that switch? You bet he can. I've used it on critters running loose on the farm. Still one word and he stops turns around and comes back to me no questions asked.
He can be walked off leash, will not leave his yard even if all gates are opened. If I tell him to stay he stays until I tell him to move. He will not take food from people unless I tell him it's okay.
Plays good with most dogs that play hard. Looks to his owner for direction as to how to act when a dog gets out of control. These dogs need you to be the ALPHA dog all day everyday.
My 76yo mother I take care of uses a walker and is very unstable. He recognizes this he will not jump up on her (even when she asks) and his attitude around her is much more docile and gentle than playing with the ruff and rowdy kids. He never tries to rush around her when she is moving across the house even when the grandkids toss his toy past her.
He is very well balanced.
Can he flip that switch? You bet he can. I've used it on critters running loose on the farm. Still one word and he stops turns around and comes back to me no questions asked.
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C. Sumpin
Custom
In Schutzdhund training and LE bite/takedown work, where the prey drive is triggered, a Pitt is not going to accept a sudden and harsh correction and it is an ignorant owner/handler that would attempt it. And as a responsible trainer I would never allow it. Period.
Bassbob
Emissary
Pitdogg2
Professional
For one not one person here was advocating that they are good for that kind of work. Yes they're much better dogs for that kind of work. The herding/working dogs are going to be much better at this since it is very much like what they were bred for in the first place.
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