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Question about HP-38 / Win 231 powder?

RedGoat said:
If I recall correctly, it was a mil-surp ball rifle powder that Mr. Hodgdon obtained and resold to bootstrap his company. Post WWII, the military was searching for the least-cost means of disposing of it and Mr. Hodgdon stepped up and said, "I'll buy it so that you don't have to dump it at sea," and he did so by the boxcar load. At least, that's what I remember about how the story goes.
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Yep, you're right on, at least according to Wiki. Here's a couple lines about how it all started.

In the opening days of WorldWar II, a chemist friend of Bruce E. Hodgdon was casually reminiscing about WorldWar I. He mentioned the quantities of surplus smokeless powder the military had dumped at sea after the war; and speculated how useful that would have been to handloaders struggling through the Great Depression. He anticipated a similar surplus powder situation might occur after World War II. Hodgdon began investigating availability of surplus powder when the war ended; and sales to handloaders began in 1946. One of the first powders he found was 4895 used for loading .30-06Springfield service ammunition. He purchased 25 tons of government surplus 4895 for $2000 and then purchased two boxcars to store it in preparation for resale at 75 cents per pound. His family initially packaged the powder for resale in the basement of their home. In 1947, he began acquisition of 80 tons of spherical powder salvaged from disassembled .303British military rifle cartridges manufactured in the United States. By 1949, he was marketing the powder as BL type C. The C was to indicate the powder burned "cooler" than traditional Improved Military Rifle (IMR) powders. In 1949, he began acquisition of powder salvaged from disassembled Oerlikon 20mm cannon cartridges. This powder resembled IMR 4350 in appearance, and with a slower burning rate, was initially marketed as"4350 Data", and later as 4831.

Back in the day as a kid, I remember someone telling me about buying a brown paper sandwich bag of powder that was scooped out of a barrel at a local hardware store. I thought that was wild, but now I read that the Hodgton family bagged and sold it out of their home's basement!!!!!. And I can't even imagine what 25 tons of powder would look like, much less anticipate buying it on a hunch.
 
Range report update on HP-38 load with a heavier crimp - The Saga Continues:

I loaded up 25 more rounds of the Berry's plated bullets atop of my highest charge of HP-38 from my previous ladder test. This time I taper crimped the dickens out of them, case mouth being "pushed into" the bullet so that the the OD of the case mouth was a full .003" smaller in diameter than the OD of the case body further behind the crimped area. In addition, as a control, I loaded 25 rounds of 125gr Hornady XTP bullets over the same charge of HP-38. (Hodgdon's load data specifically for the Hornady 125gr XTP shows this charge as a mid-level load, half way between their listed START and MAX charges, so I felt pretty safe using it given that I'd already gone to that charge level under the 125gr plated bullet.) The XTP bullet was seated a bit deeper than the Berry's plated bullet in order to line up the top of its cannelure with the case mouth, and it was HEAVILY roll crimped.

At the range, I obtained "mixed results": The 25 control rounds with the Hornady XTP bullets outperformed the 25 rounds topped with the plated boolits both in terms of delivering a higher average velocity and a lower extreme spread, but not by a whole bunch for either metric. The plated bullet rounds also delivered SLIGHTLY lower extreme spread values this time around than last. I'll attribute that improvement to the heavier taper crimp. BUT... the extreme spreads are still too high with the plated bullets, and also too high for my liking with the jacketed XTPs.

What's next? I am starting to think that maybe HP-238's burn rate might be a little slow for the 125 grain bullets. I think that I'll verify by trying two different things: 1) Use a slightly faster powder (TItegroup) with the 125 grain bullets, and 2) load some heavier jacketed (or plated) bullets atop the HP-238. If my theory is correct, both combinations should display improvement over what I've observed thus far with regard to extreme spread values. Also, I'm still considering purchase of a NEW canister of HP-238 or Win 231 just to see if the age+storage conditions has impacted my current canister.

There are lots of knobs remaining to be tweaked here! That's what makes shooting and reloading so much fun! Stay tuned!
 
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jumpinjoe said:
Yep, you're right on, at least according to Wiki. Here's a couple lines about how it all started.

In the opening days of WorldWar II, a chemist friend of Bruce E. Hodgdon was casually reminiscing about WorldWar I. He mentioned the quantities of surplus smokeless powder the military had dumped at sea after the war; and speculated how useful that would have been to handloaders struggling through the Great Depression. He anticipated a similar surplus powder situation might occur after World War II. Hodgdon began investigating availability of surplus powder when the war ended; and sales to handloaders began in 1946. One of the first powders he found was 4895 used for loading .30-06Springfield service ammunition. He purchased 25 tons of government surplus 4895 for $2000 and then purchased two boxcars to store it in preparation for resale at 75 cents per pound. His family initially packaged the powder for resale in the basement of their home. In 1947, he began acquisition of 80 tons of spherical powder salvaged from disassembled .303British military rifle cartridges manufactured in the United States. By 1949, he was marketing the powder as BL type C. The C was to indicate the powder burned "cooler" than traditional Improved Military Rifle (IMR) powders. In 1949, he began acquisition of powder salvaged from disassembled Oerlikon 20mm cannon cartridges. This powder resembled IMR 4350 in appearance, and with a slower burning rate, was initially marketed as"4350 Data", and later as 4831.

Back in the day as a kid, I remember someone telling me about buying a brown paper sandwich bag of powder that was scooped out of a barrel at a local hardware store. I thought that was wild, but now I read that the Hodgton family bagged and sold it out of their home's basement!!!!!. And I can't even imagine what 25 tons of powder would look like, much less anticipate buying it on a hunch.
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Well, I was half right. 4895 is an extruded single base powder. But BL-C(2) is a ball powder, I can't recall if it is single base or double base and I'm too lazy to go look it up right now.
 
One LAST update and then... I'm gonna hit the PAUSE button here.

Well.... I've just returned from the range where I shot the last three increments in my HP-38 / plated bullets load test ladder. This ammo I took for this trip had an "in-between" level of taper crimp applied to the bullets. (gasp! Yes! an actual crimp on a plated bullet). To give an idea, my initial batch (where I was shooting the lower portion of the load ladder) had as light of a taper crimp as I could manage. The body of the case OD on a loaded round (where the shank of the bullet lives inside the case, but well behind the case mouth) was .375". That dimension remained constant throughout this (mis)adventure. The "light" taper crimp resulted in the case mouth OD, measured as close to the edge as I could manage, at .375" to possibly .374" and left only the slightest of an indention ring around the circumference of the bullet.

On the second go-round which I shot yesterday, the taper crimp was "heavy." The case body remained at .375" OD on the bullet shank well behind/below the case mouth, but the case mouth was driven inward to a .373"-.372" OD, and the pulled bullet had a VERY deep, pronounced indention ring around its circumference.

Today's batch, with what I am terming a "medium" taper crimp, again had case body OD of .375" on the bullet shank, and a case mouth OD of .374"-.373". The pulled bullet had a pronounced, distinct indentation ring, but nowhere near a deep as with the "heavy" taper crimp.

What did I observe today with the "medium" crimp and the top three HP-38 charge increments that I've tested so far? The extreme spread values opened back up to equal or exceed those that I observed on day one when I fired the lowest charge increments using a "light" taper crimp. The fact that I observed a reduction in ES values yesterday (not drastic, but definitely significant and measurable) indicates that a proper crimp is a definite factor in handgun ammo for controlling ES values.

What else have I "learned"? 1) I don't think that the fact that these bullets are "plated" versus cast or swaged lead versus true jacketed "cup and core" has much bearing on the huge ES numbers I'm observing, other than the fact that plated bullet makers strongly discourage ANY crimping lest their fragile spawn show a circumferential ring where there was none. 2) I don't have absolute proof yet, but every "knob" that I've tweaked and measured results is leading me to strongly suspect that my meager 1 lb canister of HP-38 is degrading due to how old it is and the less-than-ideal storage conditions it has been subjected to. I'll have definite confirmation of this once I purchase a new fresh canister of HP-38 and re-run this same load ladder test and gather the ES values from it.

I have a canister of Titegroup that is the same age and was stored alonside the HP-38 powder. I also already have a NEW, fresh canister of Titegroup. I'm going to run a parallel load ladder test with powder from each of these canisters of Titegroup just to see if the behavior indicates my theory that the old HP-38 canister of powder is degrading is correct. It won't PROVE that my current HP-38 supply is going bad, but it will lend credence to the theory.

NOW I'm going to pause my running commentary on this thread until I can establish for certain the root cause of my observed wild ES values. I'll either continue in this thread or start a new "Mystery Solved..." posting thread. Thank all of you for your comments, information and insights. I hope you've enjoyed my "stream of consciousness" blathering.
 
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RedGoat said:
Well, I was half right. 4895 is an extruded single base powder. But BL-C(2) is a ball powder, I can't recall if it is single base or double base and I'm too lazy to go look it up right now.
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It appears the BL-C was his second adventure in mil surp powders. Again according to Wiki, in 1947 he began acquisition of 80 tons of spherical powder salvaged from disassembled .303British military rifle cartridges manufactured in the United States. By 1949, he was marketing the powder as BL type C. You were close enough to get credit for it! Lol!

On edit: I wrote this late last night but neglected to post it ... duhhh! So it's a little late, but made total sense when I was writing it. I'll also add, sorry for the bad luck. But there was a time (long time ago) when I needed help with plated bullets. I was told then that if ever there was no specific recipes for loading a particular plated bullet, to use the same recipe listed for the same weight of jacketed bullets. I asked about crimps and he said to crimp as if it was a jacketed bullet. Since that time I've loaded many 1,000's of plated bullets and never had a problem with crimping. If there was no specific instructions, I followed that advice and crimped excactly as I would have with the jacketed loading.
 
jumpinjoe said:
It appears the BL-C was his second adventure in mil surp powders. Again according to Wiki, in 1947 he began acquisition of 80 tons of spherical powder salvaged from disassembled .303British military rifle cartridges manufactured in the United States. By 1949, he was marketing the powder as BL type C. You were close enough to get credit for it! Lol!

On edit: I wrote this late last night but neglected to post it ... duhhh! So it's a little late, but made total sense when I was writing it. I'll also add, sorry for the bad luck. But there was a time (long time ago) when I needed help with plated bullets. I was told then that if ever there was no specific recipes for loading a particular plated bullet, to use the same recipe listed for the same weight of jacketed bullets. I asked about crimps and he said to crimp as if it was a jacketed bullet. Since that time I've loaded many 1,000's of plated bullets and never had a problem with crimping. If there was no specific instructions, I followed that advice and crimped excactly as I would have with the jacketed loading.
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Thank you for the info regarding your experience with the plated boolits.

re: Neglecting to post: Better late than never. I can't count the number of times when I was composing an email, text message, forum posting, etc late at night, stepped away to deal with an interruption, only to find the next day that I'd failed to complete and send.
 
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RedGoat said:
Perfect. Cool and dry!

My supply got abused when my ex decided that my stockpile was consuming too much space indoors and mandated that the whole kit-and-kaboodle move to the garage. It spent a couple of years out there before she actually became "ex". Sigh. Live and learn, sometimes the hard way.
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Should have moved her into the garage and kept your stash inside ??? Lol
 
RedGoat said:
Perfect. Cool and dry!

My supply got abused when my ex decided that my stockpile was consuming too much space indoors and mandated that the whole kit-and-kaboodle move to the garage. It spent a couple of years out there before she actually became "ex". Sigh. Live and learn, sometimes the hard way.
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Once, many years ago my wife suggested I should take all my loading gear out to the garage so we could have a guest bedroom. Well, I told her pdq she was sounding just like my X wife. She said with surprise ... "I didn't know you were married before." Then is when I told her I hadn't ever been married before.
Almost a true story! ;):unsure:
 
jumpinjoe said:
Once, many years ago my wife suggested I should take all my loading gear out to the garage so we could have a guest bedroom. Well, I told her pdq she was sounding just like my X wife. She said with surprise ... "I didn't know you were married before." Then is when I told her I hadn't ever been married before.
Almost a true story! ;):unsure:
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LOL. How familiar that sounds! My deceased (first) wife was VERY tolerant of my habits and hobbies. When we became empty nesters, we each got our "pick" of the bedrooms that our daughters formerly occupied. We kept a third up in shape and "clear" to accommodate guests. So we each had our "hobby" room and we still had a guest room. That worked well. After her passing, I remarried, we both sold our respective homes and purchased a rural property with a home and acreage. That's when I got the mandate to "store that stuff in the barn". Admittedly, the space in our "new" house was less than either of our respective former homes. Anyway, it rather quickly turned into an "ex" situation for any number of reasons and I've moved on. For the first time in my life (literally), I get up in the morning and ask myself, "Self, what'd you like to do today." And Self answers, "Whatever you darn well please, as long as the dog agrees." I also get to store my stuff wherever I please. Life is good, and so is my best Friend and Savior!
 
Man this all sounds so familiar but I have the single car garage as my shop, have the den as my man cave all trophies, guns and supplies stored in there, part of the pantry for "other" shooting supplies,then the rest of the "stuff" is hidden until she finds it then the arguing starts about me having too much "stuff" which turns into a money discussion we have separate funds so I usually win that one all my stuff is usually all paid for unless I go overboard with the spending then I have to get caught back up.
That's all for now on the subject !! Lol
 
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