Range Report: Advanced Defensive/Cognitive Clinic, 9/11/23

[BassCliff]

Greetings fellow enthusiasts and protectors,

It was a fun day in class earlier this week. After paying our respects to all the 9/11 victims, families, first responders, we settled in to our curriculum for the evening. We started with a few drills on USPSA cardboard targets.

The instructors threw us a little curve however. They turned the targets around backwards and made us try to hit the A zone during the Bill Drill warm-ups. This was my target after a few drills.

OK, let's turn it around and see how many are in the A zone.

OK, not too bad. I'm using my regular EDC tonight in class, the XD9. After a few Bill Drills we did a few El Pres drills, 2, 2, 2, reload, 2, 2, 2, remembering to "get off the X".

Then we started moving up and down range (5 to 15 yards) in unison, firing three to five on command. We were pivoting, reloading, getting off the X, watching our line so that no one was too far out in front, etc. When I rushed too much my accuracy suffered.

Then we moved on to more cognitive drills. Using these targets the instructors would yell numbers, colors, shapes, other assorted commands, and we were to figure out what to shoot at.

We shot these from different defensive distances. Some students were shooting at different targets. We had to be prepared to give an answer for what we shot and why. My target was a hot mess but at least I got them all on the paper and I had a reason to shoot, or not shoot.

The next drill was fun, sort of a round robin shoot-no-shoot drill. The instructors put up all different kinds of targets.

The targets would flip to either side. You might get a threatening target, you might not. We were encouraged to use our words and use as many hits as necessary to stop the threat, or not shoot at all if there was no threat or an innocent bystander. After each string the first student would roll out to the end and everyone would move over one target until we shot at all twelve targets.

This was a class effort and we did pretty good. Notice the hostage did not get hit.

And the innocent bystander in the liquor store did not get hit.

Yes, a few of us would use a Failure To Stop just because the target was extra mean.

The last drill was a combination of shooting from behind concealment, moving and shooting, back to behind concealment. There were two targets to engage on the left.

There were two targets to engage during the transit.

And finally two targets to engage from the other side.

We ran this scenario both left-to-right and right-to-left. The whole session was quite a workout, over two hours of drills, movement, thinking, reloading, different distances and targets, just a ton of fun yet seriously building skills .

Oh yeah, I picked up a new addition to my little armory. Can you guess?

You're right! It's a Maverick 88 Combo, 18.5" barrel and 28" barrel.

Oh ick. Sorry for the lousy lighting but you guys know what this one looks like. Last week I had also picked up a metal gun cabinet.

I got this on sale and it will keep the grandkids outta my guns until I can save my gig money for a proper safe.

Well that's about all the excitement I can stand this week. I'll give the Mossy a good cleaning and start gathering up something to feed it. I plan to take some training classes in shotgun home defense and maybe meet some friends for skeet shooting. There are lots of places for that around here. Until then, thanks for coming along.

One more thing, is there a cost-effect sight upgrade for the Mav88, without drilling and tapping the receiver? There doesn't seem to be a mag tube extension for this model but maybe you guys know of one. I'd appreciate any suggestions. (Oh, I guess that was two more things.)


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[belladonna]

Good shooting BassCliff! Congrats on your newest acquisition .

 

[wolfpack076]

Congrats on the new addition and Great Shooting SIR...

 

[ECS686]

Where was this and who did the class?

I hosted John Hearne in July for his Who Wins, Who Loses and Why and Cognitive Pistol with Tactical Anatomy class. Which was top notch.

 

[mikep]

nice shooting. i really like the cognitive shooting drills.
i have the same maverick 88 security/field setup. that bad boy kicks like a mule, so hold on. it is fun to shoot but my limit is 10 shells then my shoulder reminds me of the rotator cuff tear. i couldn't imagine lighting that thing up in a hallway with no hearing protection. the concussion alone would be enough.

 

[KillerFord1977]

Congrats on the shotgun
Gun day is fun day
Nice shooting.

My only tip is:
I would have let the lady walk from the liquor store. She has the cheap plastic jug vodka. Like $9.99.
She’ll die from that rock gut anyway .
I mean, if she was stealing Chopin or Belvedere Vodka light her up !!!

 

[somorris]

Looks like a fun and educational day at the range!

As far as the new Mossberg, it just reminds me that it is hard on your pocketbook to hang around ranges and gun stores!

 

[Bassbob]

Greetings fellow enthusiasts and protectors,

It was a fun day in class earlier this week. After paying our respects to all the 9/11 victims, families, first responders, we settled in to our curriculum for the evening. We started with a few drills on USPSA cardboard targets.

The instructors threw us a little curve however. They turned the targets around backwards and made us try to hit the A zone during the Bill Drill warm-ups. This was my target after a few drills.

OK, let's turn it around and see how many are in the A zone.

OK, not too bad. I'm using my regular EDC tonight in class, the XD9. After a few Bill Drills we did a few El Pres drills, 2, 2, 2, reload, 2, 2, 2, remembering to "get off the X".

Then we started moving up and down range (5 to 15 yards) in unison, firing three to five on command. We were pivoting, reloading, getting off the X, watching our line so that no one was too far out in front, etc. When I rushed too much my accuracy suffered.

Then we moved on to more cognitive drills. Using these targets the instructors would yell numbers, colors, shapes, other assorted commands, and we were to figure out what to shoot at.

We shot these from different defensive distances. Some students were shooting at different targets. We had to be prepared to give an answer for what we shot and why. My target was a hot mess but at least I got them all on the paper and I had a reason to shoot, or not shoot.

The next drill was fun, sort of a round robin shoot-no-shoot drill. The instructors put up all different kinds of targets.

The targets would flip to either side. You might get a threatening target, you might not. We were encouraged to use our words and use as many hits as necessary to stop the threat, or not shoot at all if there was no threat or an innocent bystander. After each string the first student would roll out to the end and everyone would move over one target until we shot at all twelve targets.

This was a class effort and we did pretty good. Notice the hostage did not get hit.

And the innocent bystander in the liquor store did not get hit.

Yes, a few of us would use a Failure To Stop just because the target was extra mean.

The last drill was a combination of shooting from behind concealment, moving and shooting, back to behind concealment. There were two targets to engage on the left.

There were two targets to engage during the transit.

And finally two targets to engage from the other side.

We ran this scenario both left-to-right and right-to-left. The whole session was quite a workout, over two hours of drills, movement, thinking, reloading, different distances and targets, just a ton of fun yet seriously building skills .

Oh yeah, I picked up a new addition to my little armory. Can you guess?

You're right! It's a Maverick 88 Combo, 18.5" barrel and 28" barrel.

Oh ick. Sorry for the lousy lighting but you guys know what this one looks like. Last week I had also picked up a metal gun cabinet.

I got this on sale and it will keep the grandkids outta my guns until I can save my gig money for a proper safe.

Well that's about all the excitement I can stand this week. I'll give the Mossy a good cleaning and start gathering up something to feed it. I plan to take some training classes in shotgun home defense and maybe meet some friends for skeet shooting. There are lots of places for that around here. Until then, thanks for coming along.

One more thing, is there a cost-effect sight upgrade for the Mav88, without drilling and tapping the receiver? There doesn't seem to be a mag tube extension for this model but maybe you guys know of one. I'd appreciate any suggestions. (Oh, I guess that was two more things.)


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

Unfortunately you're kind of limited with the 88. By the time you drop the cash to do most significant upgrades you're up into the Mossberg 500 range money wise. You can and definitely should get a Magpul SGA stock on it. The LOP on that 88 is too long for a defensive shotgun. The forend is one full piece, meaning that the slide arms are not stand alone like on the 500. So you have to buy a forend assembly. Not being an owner of one of these I can't tell you which ones are good or how much they cost. As far as a sighting solution you have a couple choices. Drill and tap the receiver, buy one of those polymer deals that slips over the top and attaches using the receiver pins and has a pic rail on top ( I have no information or opinion on these, but they look like they're chintzy to me) or install a light mount on the front of the gun and use a WML as a redneck sighting device. That said, a barrel bead works pretty damn well on a shotgun as long as you mount the gun on the same shoulder as your dominant eye. I would buy a pair of 5 round Esstac cards ( pay the extra $1.00 for the industrial velcro they will sell with it.) that way you have 5 rounds right there on the receiver. Then train and practice loading via the tube and the chamber. If you're not shooting it, you need to be loading it.


For a home defense shotgun, it's not optimal Cliff, but it is damn sure adequate. Here's a link to the Esstac cards and feel free to reach out if you have any questions regarding fighting shotguns and their accoutrements.

5rd Shotgun Card 12Gauge

Essential Tactical

esstac.com

 

[BassCliff]

Hi Bob,

Unfortunately you're kind of limited with the 88. By the time you drop the cash to do most significant upgrades you're up into the Mossberg 500 range money wise. You can and definitely should get a Magpul SGA stock on it. The LOP on that 88 is too long for a defensive shotgun. The forend is one full piece, meaning that the slide arms are not stand alone like on the 500. So you have to buy a forend assembly. Not being an owner of one of these I can't tell you which ones are good or how much they cost. As far as a sighting solution you have a couple choices. Drill and tap the receiver, buy one of those polymer deals that slips over the top and attaches using the receiver pins and has a pic rail on top ( I have no information or opinion on these, but they look like they're chintzy to me) or install a light mount on the front of the gun and use a WML as a redneck sighting device. That said, a barrel bead works pretty damn well on a shotgun as long as you mount the gun on the same shoulder as your dominant eye. I would buy a pair of 5 round Esstac cards ( pay the extra $1.00 for the industrial velcro they will sell with it.) that way you have 5 rounds right there on the receiver. Then train and practice loading via the tube and the chamber. If you're not shooting it, you need to be loading it.


For a home defense shotgun, it's not optimal Cliff, but it is damn sure adequate. Here's a link to the Esstac cards and feel free to reach out if you have any questions regarding fighting shotguns and their accoutrements.

5rd Shotgun Card 12Gauge

Essential Tactical

esstac.com

That's a lot of good info right there. Thanks. I'll know more about how it fits me (LOP) once I take a couple of shotgun defense classes at my local range. For now I don't plan a lot of upgrades for my Mav88. It's meant to be a "first" shotgun, a good, reliable firearm with lots of bang-for-your-buck. I did order a few things.

I want to replace the black front sight on my Ruger Mark IV. I'll work on that some other time. But the shotgun front sight was a cinch to snap on and looks pretty good.

If the buttstock shell holder doesn't work out then I'll invest in the EssTac unit. But I'm not quite ready to stick adhesive velcro all over the receiver of my brand new shotgun.

The defensive shotgun classes at my range put us through the paces, reloading, topping off, movement, etc. I'll get myself signed up for one as soon as I stock up on groceries for Mave.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[Bassbob]

Hi Bob,



That's a lot of good info right there. Thanks. I'll know more about how it fits me (LOP) once I take a couple of shotgun defense classes at my local range. For now I don't plan a lot of upgrades for my Mav88. It's meant to be a "first" shotgun, a good, reliable firearm with lots of bang-for-your-buck. I did order a few things.

View attachment 43818

I want to replace the black front sight on my Ruger Mark IV. I'll work on that some other time. But the shotgun front sight was a cinch to snap on and looks pretty good.

View attachment 43819

View attachment 43820

View attachment 43821

If the buttstock shell holder doesn't work out then I'll invest in the EssTac unit. But I'm not quite ready to stick adhesive velcro all over the receiver of my brand new shotgun.

The defensive shotgun classes at my range put us through the paces, reloading, topping off, movement, etc. I'll get myself signed up for one as soon as I stock up on groceries for Mave.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

The Velcro can be removed easily with no permanent effects on the finish. You’ll find out when you take a shotgun class that a buttstock shell holder will get in your way.

Traditionally LOP is checked by laying the butt in the crook of your elbow and seeing where your trigger finger sits. On the trigger means good LOP. That is for hunting or sport shooting shotguns. Another thing you’ll find out when you take your first shotgun class is that your stance is not standing sideways as your grampa showed you. Square up to your target in the same “ Fighting” stance you use with a handgun. Does your shotgun slip easily into the pocket of your shoulder when you mount it from low ready ? A defensive shotgun will have a shorter LOP. Maneuverability in tight quarters etc. That’s also the reason for the 18” barrel. The beauty of the SGA stock, besides excellent ergonomics, is that the LOP is adjustable via the included spacers that can be added or removed as needed. So you can shorten it when you have the 18” barrel on and it’s in defensive configuration and you can lengthen it when you swap barrels for sporting clays or upland hunting or whatever.

Just things to consider before paying good money for a shotgun class and not getting the full benefit due to how the shotgun you’re using is set up.

 

[ECS686]

The Velcro can be removed easily with no permanent effects on the finish. You’ll find out when you take a shotgun class that a buttstock shell holder will get in your way.

Traditionally LOP is checked by laying the butt in the crook of your elbow and seeing where your trigger finger sits. On the trigger means good LOP. That is for hunting or sport shooting shotguns. Another thing you’ll find out when you take your first shotgun class is that your stance is not standing sideways as your grampa showed you. Square up to your target in the same “ Fighting” stance you use with a handgun. Does your shotgun slip easily into the pocket of your shoulder when you mount it from low ready ? A defensive shotgun will have a shorter LOP. Maneuverability in tight quarters etc. That’s also the reason for the 18” barrel. The beauty of the SGA stock, besides excellent ergonomics, is that the LOP is adjustable via the included spacers that can be added or removed as needed. So you can shorten it when you have the 18” barrel on and it’s in defensive configuration and you can lengthen it when you swap barrels for sporting clays or upland hunting or whatever.

Just things to consider before paying good money for a shotgun class and not getting the full benefit due to how the shotgun you’re using is set up.

I believe the Shotgun card sleeve is ran by Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch. I saw TGB did a Beretta 1300 review and they ran the Cards like AR magazines.

As far as the Mag 88 my store has some a ton of them and I have seen folks come in and shoot them. Nobody has shot them a lot but several some. And I have seen zero issues.

How they would hold up long term don’t know. Most of our customers will buy it and keep it in a closet and about 20% will maybe shoot it some the 79% will probably not shoot it again.

So maybe you can keep us posted n your use with it!

 

[Bassbob]

I believe the Shotgun card sleeve is ran by Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch. I saw TGB did a Beretta 1300 review and they ran the Cards like AR magazines.

As far as the Mag 88 my store has some a ton of them and I have seen folks come in and shoot them. Nobody has shot them a lot but several some. And I have seen zero issues.

How they would hold up long term don’t know. Most of our customers will buy it and keep it in a closet and about 20% will maybe shoot it some the 79% will probably not shoot it again.

So maybe you can keep us posted n your use with it!

The Esstac cards are ran by all serious shotgunners.

I wouldn’t expect any mechanical problems from the 88. It’s like comparing the new Beretta A300 Ultra to my 1301T. It’s a solid gun but it is lacking the refinements and the ability to modify it to fit your personal objectives offered by the 500 series guns.

 

[BassCliff]

Hi,

Sounds like you had an absolute blast in class! Those cognitive drills are definitely a challenge; it's one thing to hit a target but another to decide what to shoot at on the fly.

Kudos on that new Maverick 88! Solid choice.

About the Mav88 sight upgrade: Check out the snap-on fiber optic sights. They're pretty bright, and you won't need to drill anything.

Thanks. The classes are quite good. The instructors here have trained with nationally known instructors and keep their skills current. With my membership discount I'm really getting a bargain on training.

I did get a snap-on fiber optic front sight. It will really help these old eyes. There's a picture earlier in the thread.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[BassCliff]

Hey Bob,

The Velcro can be removed easily with no permanent effects on the finish. You’ll find out when you take a shotgun class that a buttstock shell holder will get in your way.

Traditionally LOP is checked by laying the butt in the crook of your elbow and seeing where your trigger finger sits. On the trigger means good LOP. That is for hunting or sport shooting shotguns. Another thing you’ll find out when you take your first shotgun class is that your stance is not standing sideways as your grampa showed you. Square up to your target in the same “ Fighting” stance you use with a handgun. Does your shotgun slip easily into the pocket of your shoulder when you mount it from low ready ? A defensive shotgun will have a shorter LOP. Maneuverability in tight quarters etc. That’s also the reason for the 18” barrel. The beauty of the SGA stock, besides excellent ergonomics, is that the LOP is adjustable via the included spacers that can be added or removed as needed. So you can shorten it when you have the 18” barrel on and it’s in defensive configuration and you can lengthen it when you swap barrels for sporting clays or upland hunting or whatever.

Just things to consider before paying good money for a shotgun class and not getting the full benefit due to how the shotgun you’re using is set up.

I think I see what you mean about the buttstock shell holder. I'll know more once I put it to use.

I can tell you right now that it's covering the sling mount on the stock. That can be remedied easily enough once I get a sling. But a shot card may be the right solution. I'll get a feel for the LOP in my basement, practice bringing it up to my shoulder from low ready, and I'll do the forearm measurement (inside elbow to trigger). Thanks for the tips. It'll be a while before I get a chance to train with it. I haven't even cleaned the "new" off of it yet.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[BassCliff]

Hi,

I believe the Shotgun card sleeve is ran by Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch. I saw TGB did a Beretta 1300 review and they ran the Cards like AR magazines.

As far as the Mag 88 my store has some a ton of them and I have seen folks come in and shoot them. Nobody has shot them a lot but several some. And I have seen zero issues.

How they would hold up long term don’t know. Most of our customers will buy it and keep it in a closet and about 20% will maybe shoot it some the 79% will probably not shoot it again.

So maybe you can keep us posted n your use with it!

I've been out a few times with friends using rentals, but I've had only one training session with a shotgun. A retired police captain friend of mine let me use his Remington 870 Tactical and drilled me on reloading but I had the shells in my vest pocket and not a card. I shot a 25 round box of 00 Buck that day. I had the bruise to prove it. I'm thinking I'll take a basic course first then a defensive course with my new Mav88. This shotgun has a reputation of being quite robust but as has been mentioned, is short on the advanced features that more expensive units have.

You know how I like to spew my nooby-ness all over the forum. I'll be sure to post up a range report once I take this out for a class.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[BassCliff]

Hi Bob,

Traditionally LOP is checked by laying the butt in the crook of your elbow and seeing where your trigger finger sits. On the trigger means good LOP. That is for hunting or sport shooting shotguns. ...<snip>... A defensive shotgun will have a shorter LOP...

Thanks again. Here's my LOP check. Perhaps for a purely defensive shotgun the LOP could be a little shorter. I'll know more after a couple of training sessions. I'll be sure to ask my instructors about my options.

That SGA stock is a nice unit but is half what I paid for the Mav88. ProMag makes a stock that's more reasonably priced, with a 7 shot carrier. Is that any good?

Hmm, it's got the pistol grip too. Something else to train with.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[Bassbob]

Hi Bob,



Thanks again. Here's my LOP check. Perhaps for a purely defensive shotgun the LOP could be a little shorter. I'll know more after a couple of training sessions. I'll be sure to ask my instructors about my options.

View attachment 43878

That SGA stock is a nice unit but is half what I paid for the Mav88. ProMag makes a stock that's more reasonably priced, with a 7 shot carrier. Is that any good?

View attachment 43877

Hmm, it's got the pistol grip too. Something else to train with.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

I had one on my 500 before I got the SGA. I put the adjustable on another Mossberg 500 for my brother in law.

I have pistol grips on all my defensive shotguns except my 500. My 500 is strictly a house gun though.

That LOP is already too short for you for a sporting shotgun. Try standing square up to your target and mount the gun a few times. Is it rubbing on you on the way up or can you consistently mount it cleanly ?